MURRIETA OPEN FORUM - Get it said, get it read, communications for the community.: The Murrieta Chamber of Commerce, a “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Thursday, December 01, 2005

The Murrieta Chamber of Commerce, a “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Here is another submission from Ed Faunce concerning our illustrious C of C. I would post more of my own commentary, but I've been real busy lately. No one has contacted me with a counter to Mr. Faunce's argument, but don't think that Ed Faunce is taking over this blog. It is still an unbiased forum. (Though I do give preferential treatment to submitters who write well).

The Murrieta Chamber of Commerce,
a “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”
Submitted by Ed Faunce

During the recall process, there were several organizations which spearheaded the recall opposition. We have already looked at the Southwest County Taxpayers for Responsible Government (SWCTRG) and discovered that it was really a shill organization for non-Murrieta real estate developers. We also saw that the guiding force behind SWCTRG is Dan Stephenson, President of Rancon Realty of Murrieta.

But there was another organization which played a large role in the recall, the Murrieta Chamber of Commerce. The Chamber joined hands with the SWCTRG in opposing the recall. And no doubt many Murrietans were fooled into voting against the recall thinking that the Chamber has only Murrieta and its resident’s best interests at heart.

But, as it turns out, the Murrieta Chamber of Commerce is no more a Murrieta City organization than Dan Stephenson’s Southwest County Taxpayers etc. is a local organization of ordinary taxpayers seeking only to support “responsible government.”

The Murrieta Chamber is composed primarily of Temecula businesses. Surprise! It is also obvious that Dan Stephenson exerts inordinate control over the Chamber, in fact his wife is the Chamber’s president-elect for next year and, of course, the Chamber just toadied up a “citizen of the year” award for Dan.

So, who are the guiding lights of the Murrieta Chamber? According to the Chamber’s website they are:

The Board of Directors, Executive Board:

1. Chairman of the Board, O.B. Johnson
Westmar Commercial Brokerage, Temecula

2. Chair-Elect, Nancy Stephenson
NLS Insurance Services, (Married to Dan Stephenson)

3. First Vice Chair, Scott Crane
Southwest Healthcare Services, Las Vegas

4. Treasurer, Ron Holliday
LPL Financial, Temecula

5. Secretary , Shane Lesovsky
Temecula Valley Communications, Murrieta

6. Past Chairman of the Board, Tim Freese
Mission Oaks National Bank, Temecula
(Note Freese spoke frequently against the recall as the Chamber’s President)
Board Members:

1. Vickie Ashmore
Wells Fargo Bank (formerly)
(Now) Mission Oaks National Bank, Temecula

2. Alex Braicovich
Waste Management, Director of Governmental Affairs
Headquartered in Houston, Tx

3. John Campbell
Coyote Rentals & Equipment, Wildomar

4. Pat Kemball
The SCGA Golf Course, Murrieta

5. Timothy C. Kuzelka
Law Offices of Timothy C Kuzelka, Temecula

6. Rick Schoenfeld
KIA World of Temecula, Temecula

7. Joan Sparkman
Temecula Valley Bank, Temecula

8. Jack van Haaster, Murrieta
(Now he’s on the Board!)

9. Roger Ziemer
Southern California Gas Company, Anaheim

10. Lori Moss
City Manager, City of Murrieta
(So why is our City Manager on the Board of an organization who took a partisan position in the election of the City Council which is her employer??)

The Chamber also lists a “Chairman's Circle” which it describes as: “. . . a select group of businesses and community leaders who believe in the important mission of the chamber as an invaluable business resource and marketing conduit as well as an agent of economic development and business advocacy.”

The Chairman’s Circle consists of the following businesses:

1. Temecula Valley Bank (Temecula)
2. The City of Murrieta (Murrieta)
3. Southwest Healthcare System (Murrieta)
4. Guidant (Temecula)
5. Waste Management (Houston)
6. Paradise Chevrolet Cadillac (Temecula)
7. Rancho Ford Lincoln Mercury (Temecula)
8. Community Little Book (Temecula)
9. Quality Nissan of Temecula (Temecula)
10. K4 Incorporated (Vista)
11. The Californian (Temecula)
12. The Valley Business Journal (Temecula)
13. 103.3 KTMQ - Classic Rock (Temecula)
14. Smooth Jazz KMYT 94.5 (Temecula)
15. Froggy 92.9 (Santa Rosa)

If you take the time to look up the Chambers of Commerce, for other Riverside County cities, it is readily seen that local businesses really do make up the bulk of the chamber membership. But Murrieta is unlike any other Chamber in that it is really a Temecula Business run Chamber masquerading as Murrieta’s godfather.

Murrieta’s Chamber of Commerce does not represent businesses which are local to this City. Maybe that’s why the M. Chamber allowed Old Town businesses to languish during the year-long disruption due to delayed construction. The M Chamber only got involved with the Old Town businesses after Councilman Gibbs essentially ordered them to do so.

According to the Chamber’s website, it is “. . . an active professional organization, committed to the economic stability, growth and development of the Valley.”

As it says, the Chamber is dedicated to the development of the Valley. Well they have certainly succeeded in developing Murrieta - making it the fastest growing city in California.

The Murrieta Chamber is akin to the proverbial “wolf in sheep’s clothing.” Just like the Dan Stephenson PAC’s attempt to hide its nature behind a bogus name, the Murrieta Chamber should be more appropriately called “Another Temecula Chamber of Commerce in absentia for our little sister Murrieta.”

Now we understand more clearly why City development decisions do not favor ordinary Murrietans.

* The developers provide the money,
* The bogus Murrieta Chamber provides the cover
* The City, by its Chamber membership, provides legitimacy.

And behind the scene - guiding the entire process - is Murrieta’s number one developer rich guy - Dan Stephenson.

A good first start in reducing the Chamber’s unwarranted City influence, would be for the City of Murrieta to cancel its membership in the bogus Murrieta Chamber and also immediately cancel the $60K gift to the Chamber. After all, the Chamber does not need the money if their friends can raise $600K to control local city elections.

Furthermore, now that the M Chamber has participated in a partisan challenge to Murrietans’ attempt to elect their own City Council representatives, the City SHOULD IMMEDIATELY CANCEL ITS MEMBERSHIP IN THE CHAMBER. The City Manager, Lori Moss, should resign from the M Chamber Board of Directors.

This cannot be emphasized too strongly. The recall opposition was funded by SWCTRG but rode on the back of the County Republican Committee. City Council elections are suppose to be non-partisan. Therefore, once the M Chamber joined the partisan effort to control Murrietans’ council choices, the City should have cancelled at that time. Thousands of Murrietans were deeply offended by the actions of the Chamber. The City, by retaining membership, has given its blessings to such odious behavior.

But if the City is going to fund the partisan M Chamber, maybe the City should fund a Murrieta Chamber of residents and give it $60K so that ordinary Murrietans would have an organized voice to counter the barrage from the developers and Temecula business that want Murrieta developed for their special interests?

Ed Faunce

173 Comments:

Ed,

I for one really appreciate the time and effort that has gone into the research of your posts. It has opened my eyes further. We need to make a stand and we have little time ahead to do so before next years election. We must put pressure on the current City Council of three to make some of the moves you are suggesting. The contribution of 60K is for what?? I also agree that there is a major conflict of interest with Lori Moss serving two masters, at my expense being a taxpayer. But she isn't serving two masters is she....more like the master that runs this city....developers. Can we count on you to run this year?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 01, 2005 5:24:00 PM
All concerned,
For many months I have been stating that soon we will be steam rolled by a new agenda in this town to re-elect Jack Van Haaster to the City Council. A gentleman in the lower string commented that it is also felt at City Hall that this unethical politician will be attempting this comeback. In my arguments with Kelly Seyarto, each post he made led me to believe this is the agenda which I labeled the VanHaaster agenda. Seyarto would vilify Enochs, call Ostling and Gibbs followers as to portray these three as incompetent. We need to fight this agenda or we may as well give up. If they, meaning, Van Haaster, Seyarto and McAlister regain power, all the efforts of taking back our city will be gone. We need people who represent us, the residents. We need straight talkers, who challenge developers, road projects, state authorities and the local C OF C. We need to get Councilmen that are looking for the same type of management people to work for city government. We don't have that now, and need to do something before they steam roll all of us.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:22:00 PM
So Nancy Stephenson of the Chamber is really Dan Stephenson's wife? Someone better go break the bad news to Dan's real wife. Suffice it to say that Nancy and Dan are unrelated. Great research Ed Faunce.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 01, 2005 7:45:00 PM
Oops, bad info on Nancy Stephenson, Sorry. But that's not the thesis of my post. The "Murrieta" CC is dominated by non-Murrieta businesses. Why?

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:37:00 PM
7:45 - Man (or Madam), are you telling us that if she walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc., that she's not really a duck? Heck, she's even got the old duck's name! You sure stuck it to Ed with that little ditty of information, 7:45. Bet you called both your friends and told them all about it! Nancy and Mrs. Duck will probably be giggling their little tails off. Ed, you silly man, how could you get those girls confused? I mean, just 'cause they have EVERYTHING in common... like, even their main man... How COULD you, Ed?

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:51:00 PM
In answer to Mr. Faunce's question, perhaps it's because a lot of Temecula business's like mine are owned by Murrieta residents like me and the success of our business and the employment of our employees, some Temecula residents and some Murrieta residents, is dependent on attracting customers from both cities. I belong to both Chambers and both have been instrumental in the success of our business. With all due respect Mr. Faunce, most of what you have to say in this post is not at all representative of the Murrieta Chamber of Commerce. Perhaps you should join and see for yourself. Do you have a business?

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:17:00 PM
To Anon 9:17, OK, so you belong to the MCC. But are you one of the Board members or one of the Chairman's Circle?

I didn't say that there were no Murrieta business members in the MCC. I did say that the "guiding lights" -- Board members and Chairman's Circle -- do not come from Murrieta businesses.

You say that "most of what I said is untrue." Well what's untrue? Didn't the MCC get involved on a partisan basis in the recall election?

Didn't the MCC, particularly Rex Oliver and Tim Freeze, vigorously oppose the recall while at the same time it was accepting $60K from the City?

And isn't it true that the overwhelming majority of businesses represented on the MCC Board and the Chairman's Circle are not Murrieta businesses?

And by the way, I was told by one small Murrieta business owner that a MCC representative told them that they had better not allow any recall information in their shop.

Yes I do have a business, but it's in Temecula. And frankly I've seen nothing from the MCC leadership that would entice me to join.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:48:00 PM
9:17,
I see it this way. Any organization that would bring in someone with ethics like VanHaaster shows to all of the Murrieta residents that voted his ethics out of office that they look up to him. With that said, its an organization we should all turn our backs on. They supported him when in office, knowing he had bad dealings and now stand by him as a crook. He is the point person for the steam rolling of Murrieta under the thumb of developers. If through our posts one less dollar is spent on these "business" owners we residents of Murrieta are all the better.

But Ed, just shows you that BIG BROTHER is watching what is written here. Why else do you think Seyarto has disappeared. BIG BROTHER told him to stay off. Just shows how weak he really is. They speak and he runs and hides. Fetch Fido. Vote for this Fido.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:12:00 PM
I just do not see the constructive purpose in doing battle with the Chamber and its member employers. What is the message? Do business in Murrieta or Temecula and join the Chamber and you will be chastised by Rescue Murrieta and Ed Faunce. That really encourages employers with JOBS to locate here. I thought the goal was to lure business here and discourage commuting to other areas to work. We get it already. Big local businesses fought your agenda by financing the opposition. Will the time ever come to bury the hatchet and work with the businesses and the Chamber to improve the business environment of our area to the benefit of us all?

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 03, 2005 10:03:00 AM
No Rholmgren, I see that you didn't understand the message. No one objects to a strong Murrieta Chamber of Commerce. No one objects to such a local Chamber working to bring jobs, quality businesses etc. to Murrieta.

But we do not have a "local" Chamber. We have non-Murrieta businesses pretending to be a Murrieta Chamber.

And when you look at the identity of those businesses, they fall right into line with the same agenda pushed by the developers who funded the SWTFRG.

Rholmgren, you're far too trusting. You must learn to look for the real agenda of an organization - and not just rely on their misleading names.

Don't you see how the recall "smoked out" the real agendas and players in this City? But for the recall, we would all be in the dark about connection between the developers, the MCC and City Hall. Now, it cannot be denied.

Now is not the time to bury the hatchet because the Chamber is still intent on playing its part in dictating who should be on the City Council. The current Murrieta Chamber Directors do not represent the interests of Murrietans in controlling over population, high density development, over crowded schools, and City services.

Your position just seems so naive compared to your usual insights.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 03, 2005 11:25:00 AM
Ed,
You told me personally a long time ago to stop arguing with Roy. He will always support the Van Haaster agenda. The C of C is the enemy here. We have the population in Temecula and Murrieta to draw business although I don't see much open space for factories or plants which are where the real jobs are to be had. By building a few more Targets and WalMarts we are just keeping low income workers employed. So thinking our C of C is drawing business here is doubtful at best. What they have drawn are Developers. Roy IS NOT being naive. He supports people like Seyarto and Van Haaster and wants your posts to look like a whining Attorney. He has posted many times that he is strongly against RM. To him and many, if they can discredit you, they discredit that whole philosophy of RM. You may be a little naive thinking any differently. So answer me this.....what is your opinion our next steps should be as we close this year into a make or break Murrieta year?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:34:00 PM
To Jeff, you asked ". . . what is your opinion our next steps should be as we close this year into a make or break Murrieta year?"

First, we have identified where the problem is arising. Dan Stephenson's developer PAC, the bogus Murrieta Chamber of Commerce, a City staff that is cowed and two City Council members that are totally indebted to the "machine." Oh, we must not forget the Republican Party - after all the developers have, I'm sure, lined the County Sup's pockets as well.

So the greatest mistake that Murrietans can make is to think that they can just show up at the ballot box and cast their votes for the "best" candidate. The candidates will be handpicked by the persons, organizations and interests mentioned above.

If Murrietans are to retain any control over their City Council, they must have a nominating "convention" where qualified candidates are invited to appear before Murrietans and seek their endorsement.

Rescue Murrieta started that process during the recall. We knew that it was insufficient to seek to recall the three council members without saying who we would put in their place. So we invited interested candidates to appear before the RM general membership, answer questions, state their positions.

Eventually, we voted - just like a nominating convention - and selected three candidates that we would support to replace the three targeted council members. Then we went to work, writing letters to the papers, handing out flyers, arranging for our candidates to speak to residents in their homes.

What must be done, right after the first of the year, is that an organization of Murrietans must begin the process of identifying prospective candidates, spelling out what our issues are in the coming election. Those identified candidates must be given a chance to speak to many groups. (We held many neighborhood meetings in homes.) The candidates should be given a chance to address a general assembly and then a vote be taken to decide which candidate(s) are supported by the average ordinary Murrietan.

Once selected, the resident organization must switch from a nominating to a campaign mode.

This means helping the selected candidates with fund raising, organizing campaign activities, flyers, etc.

The organized residents must actively point out the candidates selected by the developers, the Chamber, etc. so that it is well known that they are "bought and paid for" by those who have only their self interests goals.

There are many activities that need to be coordinated, but only concerned residents acting in sufficient numbers can muster the strength to withstand the corruption of the electoral process in our City.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 03, 2005 8:33:00 PM
Jeff,there doesn't seem to be much traffic on this post, but this morning's Press Enterprise had an Editorial which lays out the basis for selecting candidates for our City Council. Essentially, the residents' organization I proposed would help candidates "find their voice" and focus their messages. It would also help with the fund raising and precinct campaigning.

Just in case you - or anyone else reading this post - do not have the Press Enterprise, here's the editorial in full.

Edward Faunce

____________________
Local gov 101

07:41 PM PST on Saturday, December 3, 2005

Serving as a citizen-legislator demands more than common sense and good intentions. It takes raising money, collecting support, walking precincts, listening to residents' concerns, grasping issues comprehensively -- and that's just the start of the campaign.

In the weeks before the Nov. 8 election, our editorial board met with dozens of candidates for local elected office. While some were well-qualified, most were bright and nearly all had their communities' interests at heart, overall we admit to being disappointed.

Too many of these would-be leaders had not done their homework. And too many candidates -- even some incumbents -- put too little emphasis on foresight and solutions.

That said, we congratulate all those who stepped up and put their names on the ballot. In the spirit of urging more Inland residents to consider entering these races and competing successfully for the prize of elected office -- we offer these suggestions.

Emphasize teamwork. No one gets elected without building alliances, and no one succeeds in elected office without embracing cooperation. This does not mean sacrificing one's principles to "get along." It does mean putting a premium on teamwork rather than pride, and grasping that compromise is part of politics.

Build a name in community service. Service on task forces, boards and commissions is a great way to make political friends while learning the nuts and bolts of how government works. It also demonstrates a sincere interest in public service. Ditto for volunteer work and regular attendance at council and board meetings.

Accumulate expertise. Many candidates make a bid for office because a particular issue or set of issues has stood their hair on end. There is nothing wrong with that; discontent with the status quo has motivated many a fine public servant.

At the same time, would-be leaders need a broad understanding of the issues facing the jurisdiction in question, from local budgets to law enforcement to growth to education to transportation to redevelopment. And quite a bit more.

This knowledge takes time to build and can seldom be gleaned in a weeks-long campaign. That is why civic involvement is so vital. Same with reading the daily newspaper, interacting with community leaders (teamwork again) and taking the time to read public records, starting with the last year's budget and a city or county's blueprint for growth, called the general plan.

Focus on solutions, not slogans. People want a reason to vote for a candidate, not just vote against an incumbent. So stand for something substantive and positive. Demonstrate knowledge and forethought. Devise pragmatic solutions based on research. Don't assume that common sense is enough.

Be honest. No one expects a candidate to know everything. A would-be leader who says "I don't know" will get much more credit for simple candor than one who tries to fake or dance around an answer.

Voters also appreciate candidates who are honest about their principles rather than those who project themselves as neutral and inoffensive in an effort at broad appeal.

Finally, any would-be candidate should be able to answer -- convincingly and in 25 words or fewer -- this simple question: "Why are you running?"

Unconvincing answers include, "I've lived here 20 years and I know what the city needs," "The incumbents don't get it" and "I want to make a difference" (slogans again).

We think voters, us included, are more persuaded by such answers as, "The city needs a better plan for growth, and here is what I would suggest." Or "The district needs better roads, more jobs, and amenities X and Y, and here are realistic ways to achieve those goals."

This is just an overview. Whole books have been written on the mechanics of running for office. It is not easy, but public service is an end worth pursuing. Run hard. And good luck.

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 04, 2005 9:23:00 AM
Murrieta T,
Finally something we agree on. Ed Faunce would be an excellent candidate and I too want to do things that help him run. We need to get his name out there and what he says and knows. With his behind the scenes work he would be the fresh blood and defender of our City that we need. Ed, I know you aren't tipping your hand yet as you haven't answered me. When you need my help, write Nancy Knight. I will send her my e-mail if you would like to get hold of me. I will be away soon for the holidays.
I know I have alot of passion in some of my political posts. But what I think of the National scene will never have one bit of effect on it. But my main passion is the non-partisan effect as a group that RM can have on this town. I read the PE post. You are one of those candidates. It's finding two others that match your integrity. Go for it!!!
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 04, 2005 6:17:00 PM
To BucFan, you completely miss the point of this post. No one is arguing about who can be a member of what Chamber of Commerce.

The issues are whether the Chamber has Murrietans' interest at base and whether the City should be a member now that the Chamber has engaged in partisan politics?

You said: "Most people don't join a chamber of commerce for political purpose, but to better serve their business, which will better serve the community."

That's precisely what they want you to think. That's why I complained that its not Murrieta businesses which are running the Chamber. Many people, apparently yourself included, are lulled into the belief that the Chamber only acts favorably for Murrieta.

You say that "growth is coming." Right, but if you have been following this blog, you would have seen just how concerned everyone is that the developers -- backed by the Chamber -- are going to throw up high density residential developments (apts. and condos) right in the midst of our commercial space.

So, Bucfan, you need to read what was said about our Chamber and its connections to the developers before leaping to wrong conclusions.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 05, 2005 12:52:00 PM
Ed,
Bucfan is another satisfied VanHaasterite. He must just be depressed the way Tampa Bay is playing.
He may not be a member but he defintely knows Stephenson, Van Haaster, Seyarto or McAlister.....he spit the numbers out too fast. Maybe his next post will be warning us that families are leaving Murrieta by the droves for Phoenix because we lack low income housing. Come to think of it..Kelly are you a Bucfan?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 05, 2005 1:51:00 PM
It's quite funny to see Faunce cry wolf when the Murr CC is thought to be dictating who is on the CC, when in fact, RescueMurrieta set itself in the same exact position.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 07, 2005 1:12:00 PM
The faces of the C of C are being heard. Rescue Murrieta asked the residents to make a decision and they got rid of JVH the unethical crook. Now the pot is stirring. All the crooks will be weeded out and the true faces of happy residents will remain.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:38:00 PM
1:12 Your statement is not understood. The Murr CC leadership consists of individuals wanting only economic benefit for themselves. Whereas, RM consists of residents wanting only community facilities and improvements that will benefit all the residents. For one, I don’t see where adding multiple multi-unit complexes and a 6 lane Jefferson freeway through the new city civic center could be described as a benefit to the residents, or on Washington Ave within a block of 2, overcrowded schools where driving is already a nightmare.

2:38 The weeds will only be cleared if the residents continue to pay attention and act accordingly as to what is going on around them. RM did it’s job by opening the door for the residents. The ball is now in their court.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 09, 2005 6:17:00 AM
6:17,
But before long there will be an exist off the I-15 and the sign will say Old Town Murrieta, Vanhaaster Accounting firm straight ahead and the ramp will run down to the new 6 lane Old Town plaza. VanHaaster will have a thirty foot neon sign.

Tell me why did we spend so much money on Old Town? What is really there that the people of Murrieta flock to? I see that people go to the Mill, which is a great place and the Post Office but what else? Wouldn't we have been better served with the streets around the police station improved? Oh I forgot Jack's business is down there? Or was it parking for Joaniees'?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 09, 2005 12:20:00 PM
6:17 Yeah, you RM people have just done such a wondeful job. Let's see - your new boy on the dais has done exactly what? If i remember correctly, his big acheivement so far this year is making everyone call each other Mr.

So tell me, exactly what has the altruistic RM actually done - and I mean actually done - for the city. Whining like a jet engine does not count as getting something done.

I'm very interested to hear all of RM's accomplishments since VH is gone.

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 11, 2005 4:56:00 PM
4:56,
Gibbs was the one who kept the AC development out of Murrieta last Tuesday calling it a "slum". To me thats more then VanHaaster did for this city protecting it against development. He sold us out and then turned crook and cheated all of us. So lets add this up VanHaaster sold us out, made more money for developers...gibbs prevented a slum. Hooray for RM. You took a crook out and prevented a slum all in 9 months. 4:56, go back to the C of C and tell then we know who you are.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 11, 2005 6:45:00 PM
4:56. Are you sure you aren’t related to Seyarto? You speak the same language – “you people”. And as far the council members calling each other “Mr.”, what is you aversion to people talking respectful to each other? If you would have been at the last council meeting you would have heard the City Clerk make the statement that the new code of ethics resolution is considered as a roll model by the League of Cities and that only one other City in the State has one like it. She also said that the council members could be proud of their accomplishment. And if you were there or listened to it you certainly didn’t see Gibbs take any bows for it, even though it was one his campaign promises. I say most because wasn’t it Seyarto that said staff has better things to do and he felt their time shouldn’t be wasted on such nonsense, yet he praises the League of Cities for what they do.

You ask what RM has done since JvH is now gone. All I know is what I hear at council meetings or read in the paper. The first thing I would notice is that City and the school district both say that over the past few months they have been communicating much more then in the past. Isn’t that a good thing considering the hundreds of families that are moving into the City?

Or how about the fact that the planning commission is listening more to the residents and aren’t afraid to question the developers. One certainly did not see that happen on JvH’s watch, now did they?

And I suppose you are in total agreement with Washington Ave. and the developer’s attempt to turn it into apartment row? If that’s so, then you should be the first to come forward and voice your support for one of the newest projects coming to town. That would be the 400 plus unit apartment complex planned on Jefferson between MHS and Ivy, and where Jefferson will have to be stripped to accommodate 6 lanes of traffic. Now isn’t that going to be pretty site when those apartment residents want to make a left turn into their complex when the only thing between them and 3 lanes of on coming, 50 mph traffic is a 6” painted line? Even the adjoining businesses whose doors and windows will only be 16 feet away from those moving vehicles aren’t happy about those plans. That distance is probably about the length of your kitchen. Let’s see how this one is going to pan out, then you tell us what’s so wrong with JvH being gone is.

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 11, 2005 7:30:00 PM
To Anon Sunday 4:56, who said:

"I'm very interested to hear all of RM's accomplishments since VH is gone."

My, my how uninformed you are. What was RM suppose to be doing following the recall? Everybody asked RM to step back and let the dust settle. So we did.

But, as you say, we did get the Mayor recalled. Pray tell, when did any group even approach that level of resident activisim in Murrieta -- Ever?

RM is not whining, but you, Anon, are sneering.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 12, 2005 2:42:00 PM
I'm sorry, I guess I should have said the RM voting cartel - what have they done? I'm sure RM is doing things behind the scenes since we have elections this year..

Re: communication between the school board and Council...is the theory now that JVH was the limiting factor? Got any data to prove that ?

Re: JVH being a crook? Again, any data or just conjecture? Was their a trial and conviction that went un-noticed?

Re: JVH and planning commision..again, the Planning Comm. does not fall under the oversight of the Mayor. They act on their own. So how does JVH being gone rectify this situation ? If there is more community comment being taken in now, so be it - but I don't think it's because JVH is gone.

Re: apartments on Jefferson....I have no comment as I have not studied the issue but in the macro, I'm in favor of new business and development, when done to code and to city specs, including being able to handle the traffic load safely, coming to Murrieta.

Re:RM being able to recall the Mayor. Again, it's had exactly what tangible effect? Outside of everyone calling everyone sir on the dais, what did it do? It just shifted the dreading voting bloc to RM's favor.

And Mr. Faunce - if i'm sneering, you could be right. I tend to sneer at reactionary kneejerk measures, instead of well thought out ones.

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 12, 2005 5:35:00 PM
JVH is a crook, Seyarto is a crook and McAlister is a crook......they have stolen so much of our community and handed it to the development community. What did JVH give us, the mess we have now. Traffic so bad you can't go out at rush hour or for that matter Saturday. No infrastructure. He short changed us on each development, we got very little infrastructure. But he did beautify the street where his business is at, so we can drive down and look at the Murrieta slum area. Thanks Jack.

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 12, 2005 5:55:00 PM
Anon 5:35….so if you don’t believe the removal of JvH is the reason for the changes mentioned, what are they?

Anon 7:30

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 12, 2005 8:21:00 PM
5:55 ...So JVH, Seyarto and McAlister are crooks. Again, I ask - got any data? I think not. Thanks for playing.

8:21...How do you account for the change? I only state that I don't think that JVH was ground zero for the problems that the city faces. I just don't see where the new boss (the RM cartel) has done anything that much better other than giving some lip service to the problems and putting the city in a position where a potentially very expensive lawsuit looms before the city.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:25:00 PM
Well murrietaneyes, I'll take developers - business people who know how to make money and projects - over local yokels anyday. Since when is there a stigma in being a developer?

Did you build your own home murrietaneyes? Did you create the roads on it or did someone else? I'll bet someone else did - and they were those evil capitalistic developers, hell bent of ruining Murrieta. Sure seems like a lot of the constant whine - now that "we" (as in RM) live here, nothing else new should happen, no one else should move in and everyone can go pound sand.

Towns don't turn into cities like Murrieta is going to with that old town logic, feel and political bent. It will take business people to take Murrieta up to the next level, not some good ol boys who oppose anything new that might upset their cart.

Give me developers any time over good ol boys. At least the developers could raise that money, and RM went 1 in 3 with their witchhunt. So any problems that happen are only JVH, McAllister and Seyarto's fault? No Enochs or Osling participation? Oh, that's right - they only did the right things, the other three did all the bad things. Nothing can be pinned on Enochs and Osling with JVH being around to pin it on. It's pure comedy.

Seyarto and McAllister, if they shot their mouths off as you say, would have only seen the writing on the wall. When a developer adheres to all requests for a project, jumps thru hoops to get it done and then still get's denied, they should sue. Too bad Enochs and Osling have the immunity they have. It's quite a stretch to call Seyarto and DM traitors, but like alot of the hyperbole up here, it's a stretch.

Murrieta deserves better than it has - Murrieta deserves some proven business people at the helm, not some slow growth seniors kicking the time away.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:35:00 PM
Do you need photos to accept the logic that JVH, Seyarto and McAlister are on the take? If you need actual money transferring hands you'll never find it. Some facts have to be weighed against the logic of a matter. Do you believe OJ is innocent? Do you have pictures to prove him guilty? How about Michael Jackson?

Here are three Councilmen, who always side for whatever the development community asks in their voting pattern getting 600K from these great Murrieta contributing developers. Let's see 2+2=4. The are bought and paid for. They sell us down the river with each vote. Seyarto came on this blog and stated that he is worried about maintaining the profit of a developer over waiting to consider a vote. HE SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT THIS CITY ABOVE EVERYTHING. But he knows he will not survive this year without his and seems like your GOOD OLE BOYS.

All three have stuck a knife into this City. Now again here is someone attacking Enochs and Ostling for being old. Now thats a logical statement.
We have more then a need to rid ourselves of KS and little mac. We need to weed out the City Manager and her high paid, do nothing staff and move down the line to the Planning Commission. We eventually will.
JVH had the voting power. He is an admitted crook. Enochs and Ostling may be worthless in their own way, but they are not unethical. Just the fact that they stuck AC in the lawsuit. Do you work for AC or is it Bezar, oh.....you work for Rancon. Thought so.

There is not stretch here. These guys are on the take and the fact is you don't want it spread and want it kept quiet that some residents actually figured it out. Thats why Seyarto and McAlister survived. No one really knew the problems, at least not the majority of residents. But not this time around. The City Council, Chamber of Commerce, City Management issues will be out on the table because this time around we will out do the developers. We have what they can never have. Word of mouth. It means more to us because it means our future. They will move on. It's just money to them.

So go call your buds at the C of C and let them know, there will be no shutting us up.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:23:00 PM
Hey Anon of 4:35 you are really losing it. Are you a Murrieta Rip Van Winkle? Did you just awaken from a slumber?

You are at least a year and half late with your nonsensical charge that RM was and is a slow growth organization. You need to crawl back into your cave and continue your winter's nap.

Frankly, you are so uninformed that its not worth the time to even answer you. But, just maybe you could examine our over crowded schools, our clogged streets and our need to upgrade City services before you hide your eyes and let the developers build what ever they want and when they want to build it.

Your position is tantamount to a no planning position. It's JUST STUPID.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:03:00 PM
After looking at what Anon has been writing, its pretty clear that the latest Anon is Kelly Seyarto. Notice his contempt for the residents, he calls them "local yokels" and "seniors kicking the time away." That's a slip, he is really hoping the seniors "kick the bucket."

Despite orders to stay off this blog, old Kelly's narcissistic personality will not allow him to stay quiet.

After all Anon (KS) knows better. But he knows nothing about representing Murrietans. He stupidly continues to vote in favor of the developers. I've had a number of people ask me:

"How could Kelly Seyarto and Doug McAllister have voted to approve the Alexander Communities' condo project after the devastating presentation that Councilman Gibbs made?"

Of course it’s a rhetorical question and the answer is that these two council men have to go -- especially Seyarto.

So Kelly "Anon," keep up your spouting. You fool no one with your anon posts.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:45:00 PM
Anon 1:25 Of course JvH isn’t ground zero for all the problems in this City. He has many accomplices. No one is fool enough to think that JvH is that powerful. You say where the new boss (RM cartel) has done anything that much better other than giving same lip service. Let’s see, it took JvH 13 years to do the damage, yet you think the damage should have been corrected in a few short months? And “much better” ? Does that mean you see changes, but overall not good enough? And the same lib service? Does that mean you think JvH and his accomplices were parties to lib service? Speaking of lawsuits, did you check out the last week’s agenda for the closed session? Even before either of the AC projects were heard, with one approved and one denied, the agenda read “possible lawsuit with AC”. One would question why it was even an agenda item unless someone from the inside was promoting the lawsuit. Could that have been Seyarto promoting his own agenda by asking for it be an agenda item. Yes, I will say there is no proof to this, but neither is there proof that a god really exists. It’s all a matter of belief. So believe what you may, because open minded you are not. Oh, and you’ll notice that in all of the blog postings, very few have come to JvH’s defense, not even those that are Seyarto supporters. Now why do you think that is?

Just Curious.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 14, 2005 10:14:00 PM
You guys are all fooled that was not Kelly. It is common knowledge of what most of what the former RM group represented. It also borderline weird that they think of this city as damaged and yet people are still flocking here for numerous positive reasons. The RM group had their 15 minutes of fame and their members accomplished ONE thing in the long years that they have been politically active. (and that pre dates RM) All I hear is a bunch is mostly unsubstantiated allegations from RM groupies that are thrown out there to create a negative perception that there are numerous past and present illegal activities taking place behind the councils closed doors. Put up some proof or shut up. You think council members are on the take? Call the DA and investigate and show a money trail. ME are you a despicable person? Your comments on DM 's family matters are a Neaderthal tactic. Maybe we should make a few comments about your family on here? Go back and read your posts on this string RMer's. You come across as negative sourpusses. It is very uninspiring and definitive proof that you people should not be setting the agenda for Murrieta's future.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:25:00 AM
If Seyarto is not the sourpuss anon above, then it is probably just one of his trainees on the planning commission. Someone trying to make daddy proud. Makes no difference, it is the same old Seyarto line. The direction he wants to take this town is stuck in reverse, so all those on his bandwagon are heading the same direction. If it somehow becomes more profitable for his politically supportive developer friends to do what is in the best interests of Murrieta (like building tax-revenue generating business in what is left of the commercial corridors) then the bandwagon will do a 180 degree turn and his followers will all be on board. This is not illegal. It is just transparant and selfish. What a guy. What a group.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:54:00 AM
Where is the proof that he is in the pocket of his developer friends? Do you know who his friends are by name? I am with you that we should not develop potential tax generating lots into high density housing. There should be no more of that south of Ivy. I do however support more high density development along the Washington corridor.

Mr. Faunce said that Sonrisas is an "eyesore." Well the old cliche that: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." has never been truer. I like Sonrisas. On the other hand I think that the houses in the Murrieta Ranchos development look like glammed up versions of that large shack in the movie "The Jerk." That is just my opinion. Other people might think that my house just looks like a big ugly 2 story box. And that is their opinion. We need an inclusionary housing policy in Murrieta and thank God that Murrieta's oddballs are still not in charge.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 9:34:00 AM
Actually, Rholmgren, I also reported that a visiting friend commented, after seeing the Sonrisas while driving on Washington: "I didn't know that there was a penal colony in Murrieta."

But, hey if you like it, you are definitely in a small minority. (Kassen Klein also thought it was a good project. But then he helped vote it in when he was on the Planning Commission.)

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 9:40:00 AM
Mr. Faunce I am in the minority according to who? Could you please cite the survey or poll to back up your assertion? Otherwise you are grabbing another faux fact out of thin air.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:26:00 AM
Roy,
You want facts about Seyarto and McAlister being on the take? I have to ask you then, is OJ innocent of killing Nichole? Did Michael Jackson do something wrong? What's your take on these two incidents? Sometimes all you have is logic, gut feel and experience to use as judgment.

Seyarto and McAlister were backed by 600K. Every vote they cast, including the other night when Gibbs blew AC out of the water, is to back anything the developers want. Now let me see.....600K, they vote with development every time.....ummm......ummmm.....come on. This is my exact point when talking to you. You would defend Seyarto if he killed someone standing in front of you. Sometimes you have to eat your pride and use your head, not you ideology.

Then why are apartments so important to you. You like I are a resident. More apartments, more cars. How do more apartments make your life better?

Ed, your right, that complex is as if it is a walled fortress. Does King Arthur live there?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 6:01:00 PM
Rholmgren
I would agree that Washington apartments/condos would be far more sensible from a sales-tax economic point of view than anything south of Ivy. (Although the added traffic on Washington raises a "who needs it" kind of question.) But on Jefferson and Madison the question is not only one of traffic, but a very serious question of the public treasury. The commercial tax generating value of the remaining acreage in the areas along Jefferson and Madison from Ivy to Guava is Murrieta's treasure trove of the future if it is not squandered on high density apartments, which are tax-eating rather than tax-generating. It is fiscally irresponsible to the point of being reprehensible for anyone to betray the public trust in order to satisfy the greed of developers who just might show their gratitude with campaign support, whether a politician claims to want that support or not. Not only are the Seyarto-supported apartments a tax drain, but there is now a very real possibility that the huge influx of apartments will cause the prime acreage southeast of the intersection of MSPR & Jefferson to become a supermarket based neighborhood-style center. Wanna know how much sales tax revenue a grocery store generates? Next time you buy a bag of groceries, see how much tax is involved. This is a chain-reaction sales tax tragedy that is unfolding for Murrieta. Just look at the location of these properties, just west of the Golden Triangle and the main route from the Triangle to our Civic Center. The potential of this area is sky-high if it is not shot down. This may end up being the most incredible squandering of valuable commercial property that I have seen in decades of experience in development-related matters. It is certainly the most mis-managed public planning I have ever seen. And it is all with the most transparant political motives imaginable. This is not a Republican or Democrat or Libertarian question. The questions that are raised here are questions of the mental capacity and/or the basic integrity of any politicians who would support this self-destructive lunatic plan for ultra-high density apartment development in the prime commercial corridors of Murrieta.
Been There

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 6:09:00 PM
Been There is Seyarto on the public record in support of those apartments? I am with you on this entire area. Jeff I am sorry but I do not relate that 600K to a councilman being bought. I see it as a business decision that supports jobs and growth in our area. It seems to me that all of the businesses that Mr. Faunce listed would lose alot of revenue if the council went into slow growth mode. I detest slow growth advocates. They are afraid of the future and their minds are stuck in the past. Don't you find it odd that slow growth groups were very vocal and in the forefront twenty years ago and today they are seldom heard from. Where did they go? The same people are still vocal but they deny their motivations.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 6:33:00 PM
Rholmgren Seyarto has recently become more guarded in his previously outspoken support of anything that came with a low-rung mass housing development label. However, I have solid reason to believe that he plans to see the apartment matter succeed. I discovered at city hall that this particular apartment matter goes back a few years and has long had the unpublicized blessing of city staff. Most of this happened during the time vanHaaster and those loyal to him were at the helm. It would be a major political embarrassment to certain past and present city officials if this apartment plan failed. I guarantee you this: There was more than sentiment going on when tears flowed at city hall on the night of the recall election. There was fear of the skeletons of quietly approved deals coming painfully apart. I personally do not care who is in office in this town, as long as they do not leave it permanently finacially bleeding just for the sake of political advancement. I hope the council and the planning commission will put the city's best interests first when it comes to this financially awful apartment matter, but I think certain members have certain motives to do the dirty deed and try to make it a "go", and soon they are going to be working overtime to pump this ugly blimp of an idea full of hot air propaganda.
Been There

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:22:00 PM
Roy,
Read your own words. It was a business decision that supports jobs and growth. Why was it a business decision? Because they knew by doing it that they would have bought the votes of the Councilmen they were supporting. You answered my logic. Bought and paid for.

Been there.
Thats why the only way we are able to stop having to fight each apartment complex as they come is to change the people that are connected to the Van Haaster regime and keep JVH from coming back. You know thats what all of this is setting us up for.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:33:00 PM
Been There: It’s seems that you understand the issues much more then you have previously stated. You bring to light much more then the technical aspects that some of us see, including my self. Hats off to you. Where is that you have been?

Just Curious

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:08:00 PM
Been there,

If the case you stated is correct, that you care about the financial success of Murrieta and the fact that you stated it is Seyarto's purpose to direct these complexes to fruition then you should care if he and McAlister remain on the City Council. Is that correct? They are not going to change their direction. To do so would cost them their political and financial backing.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:08:00 PM
If what BT says is true about JvH and those loyal to him at the helm with the blessing for an apartment complex, then I would ask if the support is still there with JvH off the council. We for sure know he is all but gone. The staffers at the helm? I can only think of one helm member gone. That would be figurehead, City Manager Mandoki. Moss was the real person in the driver’s seat. The top staffers are there as before, only with their director titles. And if this is the case, then all are still on the checkerboard, only on different squares. That would mean support for the apartments is still high? And who would be the logical person pushing JvH’s agenda?

Just Curious

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 6:55:00 AM
To my blogging friends I just want to add a final note in response to the most recent posts. The history of apartment approvals for this property goes back far enough that more than one member of the planning staff has since departed, although that does not entirely remove the root of this particular problem. This is a very deep can of worms. Most of the history (up until the recall) occurred during the period in which vanHaster/Seyarto were the all powerful political heavyweights. I would suggest that someone who wants to dig into that can of worms goes to the city immediately (before staffers get too nervous) and get into the property file for that property. If records have not been accidentally misplaced, there are numerous apartment-related papers for this property that go back years. Some documents have names attached, and those names can lead to more information if anyone pursues it. I myself do not want to see heads roll over this issue. My only concern is to try to do what is right for commercial property with extremely high potential as a permanent sales tax generating machine for Murrieta. This kind of property can generate public revenues for generations to come, or it can (as high density apartments do) become a permanent taxpayer burden. I've said almost all I know, so I'm backing off now. Peace.
Been There

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 8:20:00 AM
BT, thanks for your direction. I agree that staff-level heads should not be a target. I for one am not exactly positive which property is the intended development, as a few possible locations have been discussed on the blog. BT, can you give direction on the subject property?

Just Curious.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 12:13:00 PM
BT,
Also thanks for the technical knowledge you've let us have. One problem I do have with all of it, is you seem to be very defensive of the employees that work in the Murrieta city government, which means you must also be an employee. That's all well and good, but it would really help if you could lead us to the people you know for sure that are directly hurting the city we all love. Thanks for all your responses and I understand loyalty.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 12:35:00 PM
The departed planning staff person would have the initials EP ?

Just Curious

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 2:21:00 PM
I went to City Hall today and asked to look at the property file for the multi-family project at the corner of Jefferson and MHS Road. The planner wanted to talk to me about the project, but I insisted that I wanted to see the entire file.

He brought out a bekins sized box. I leafed though the documents, but I'm not that familiar with the document types that are found there.

The project covers 29+ acres and is to be subdivided into one commercial and four multi-family units.

Larry Markham is the builder's representative. The builder appears to be MJW with headquarters in Canoga Park.

Amoung other documents was a letter from the School District stating that the impact on the affected elementary, middle and high schools was "high".

I was told that the documents in the file are all being "resubmitted," but I was not told why.

There was an apparent meeting at City Hall attended by the developer's reps and Lori Moss and John Harper on October 25, 2005.

Somone familiar with this type of planning file should review the documents.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 2:22:00 PM
JC and Jeff Jeff, I am not going to state my position or my relationship with anyone at the city, other than to say as I’ve noted before that my experience involves development, but not major scale development. As a result of my work, I have over a good number of years been into various city records, and I have dealt with city personnel who knew a lot about what was happening. JC, let me just direct your attention to the 400+ unit apartment complex proposed for Jefferson. Look first to records on this property that go back 18 months or more. Ask about what had received ‘administrative approvals’ in those early stages, and who gave those approvals, and on whose authority were approvals given for apartments of the proposed ultra-high density. Discover why those approvals were not acted on at the time. Hint: The delay in the widening of Jefferson, which is going on right now, is a matter worth exploring. It was expected to be completed long ago, when the political makeup in the town made the apartments almost impossible to contest. Do not discount the importance of the recent decision (by city management) to take Jefferson to 6 lanes. Consider the relationship of this decision to political (and possibly even more serious) anxieties about possible a disapproval of this complex over traffic concerns. I’m now really finished with what I have to say on this matter. If this project made any sense for Murrieta, I would not have said anything to begin with. I’d prefer that nobody lose their job or their elected position over it, but that’s not for me to decide. If what I’ve said is not enough to lead people to the answers they need to stop this permanent fiscal tragedy from taking root in our soil, then we’ll just have to live with everything it implies.
Been There

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 2:33:00 PM
Let's remember who gave us everything that is good in Murrieta.

Thank you Jack vanHaaster and Kelly Seyarto for

1) Our new police station and library and civic center

2) Our old town improvements

3) Our improved Ivy Street

4) Our new schools.

We should focus on the good things that have been done for us.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 5:00:00 PM
You know what pisses me off are people who come on here and want to remind us what is good. The sun came up yesterday. Christmas is 9 days away. It doesn't give a politician the right to screw us all over because he fell into doing some good.

Those improvements you mentioned would have gotten done by Bozo the clown without even trying. They would just happen. And for the life of me, I can't understand why we spent money on Old Town. What is down there that we need extra parking, street lights, improved roads? Jack's business is there but what else, really? The police station had to happen unless you want criminals locked in a trailer. Thats a no brainer for the tax dollars they have. New schools? We are still short, but oh thats right we did make improvements for access to a pre-school. Improved Ivy...the street with constant running water and pot holes.

This person even knows exactly how to spell JVH'S name. Thanks Jack but you should have stopped taking developer contributions and worried about the schools, parks and traffic for the guys who paid your salary....us residents.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 5:23:00 PM
And let's not forget the Nutmeg bridge and the widening of MHSR and Jefferson. What would have happened if we had waited for the fees to be collected BEFORE these roads were widened? First the traffic situation would be indescribily horrendous and second doing those projects now would be double or triple the price that they were done for just a short time ago. The Seyarto and Vanhaster team did more good things for Murrieta than all the worthless RMer's combined. And that includes you Mr Faunce. Think about it: Name one tangible thing that an RM core member is responsible for accomplishing within our city. (Besides removing Vanhaster and complaining about projects)

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 5:29:00 PM
Even if Seyarto is not on the take, it is obvious that his political aspirations do not end with the Murrieta Council seat.

I would just like to know if Ostling and Enochs have been gelded by AC's lawuits? Legal extortion is just plain wrong, and a business that would use this as a tactic should not be welcome in Murrieta.

By J. L. Kunkle, at Friday, December 16, 2005 5:47:00 PM
If I were in AC's shoes I would have done the same. Exercising one's right to develop their property is the American way. They jumped through all the hoops that the city put in front of them. Another lawsuit would not surprise me. If the city does not want AC type development then they should stop it much earlier in the approval process. It is a poor business practice to lead anyone on.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 6:15:00 PM
Roy,
Getting rid of JVH was the greatest thing a majority of the residents in this community have ever done. Doing the improvements you are talking about are slam dunks. What politician in his right mind wouldn't do these things. Why dont you see that? JVH had to do something good, just by sitting on a Council of five, some good comes. Even Cunningham did some good things before he was caught and now will be best friends with Scott Peterson for a few years.

Its the pain we are seeing today, traffic, schools, possible loss of tax money, loss of city ethics, poor planning, too much far too quick as far as growth. Poor business practice is watching two "paid for" Councilmen vote for development over the benefits owed the residents of our town. RMers took out JVH and they will be part of the base taking out the other two unethical crooks. What one tangible things have you got accomplished Roy, oh nothing...thought so. AC is helping to turn us into the poor parts of Lake Elsinore with low income housing. But maybe Old Town needs to be redeveloped again because JVH wants more parking for his business. Kelly, get that done for him, ok?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 6:34:00 PM
The person who posted above listing what Soretoe and Jackaaster "gave" us needs to remember those politicos "gave" us NOTHING. Everything the poster refers to is PAID FOR by US via OUR PUBLIC TREASURY which is now in the process of being PERMANENTLY MINIMIZED by the introduction of IMMENSE TAX SUCKING APARTMENT COMPLEXES.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 8:27:00 PM
8:27 they were paid for by us but those two councilmen made those projects a reality. They would not have happened without the hard work of Jack and Kelly. What are you a MORON?

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 16, 2005 11:57:00 PM
Roy,
Where's your proof that Jack and Kelly did it alone or that they had anything to do with it at all? LOL.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:13:00 AM
11:57 Numerous cities all over Southern California have beautiful public facilities. (Not just civic centers designed to be the very visible throne of the council). In this town, the most distinguishing feature is something that is not visible. It is the mass housing nightmare that is being imposed on the future of the citizenry. Let's forget the past for the moment. Let's agree that any planning commission or council member who from now on approves mass housing that will burden the future of this city is worthy of no respect. I say past sins forgiven! Let's fight to protect what remains.

Stop the tax drains. Stop the mass housing traffic generators.

For goodness sake, let's join forces and protect the future for our property values and our families. Please, everyone. Let's remember our priorities. Those are the only things really worth fighting for.

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 17, 2005 8:23:00 AM
8:23,
How can we forgive whats been done to hurt us? Its in your face today and will be in your face everyday after. Traffic problems. They let development come in here with little or no infrastructure and run amuck. We must remember the past to stop the future destruction. If we don't, unethical politics will again come back possibly in November in the name of JVH or someone that is handpicked to replace a weak link like Ostling. We need to remember so we can rid ourselves of Seyarto. He is the driving force that has been paid to lead the high density charge. If we don't stop him now, he will use every misleading trick, every behind the scenes tactic he can to push one agenda. To build out the rest of this city with high density development.

A long time ago a small group got together and stood up to a very powerful and corrupt politician. He now works at the Chamber of Commerce. We can't let the likes of him return, nor can we let politicians like Seyarto stay as they are connected at the hip to JVH. I hope we all remember and move forward as a group today.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:00:00 AM
I’ve been following everyone’s writings, and I want to provide a little bit of information related to the apartments on Jefferson Avenue.

First I want to say I don’t like apartments from an aesthetic or community finance perspective, but I’m neutral from a personal economic standpoint on this project. My home is directly across the street. We bought our property here only about 12 years ago, but how things have changed. We’d occasionally see horses and farm animals visiting our land from neighboring properties to the west. That property to the west is now a big Horton condo project. In twelve years The traffic on Jefferson has gone from being pretty tame to being downright heavy. On Madison, the mostly wide open fields between our house and the freeway for many blocks is now largely built, and building is approaching us from both ends of Jefferson. I have no problem with any of that. If Murrieta stayed quiet and rural, I liked having a rural home. If Jefferson started to develop in a really high quality way, my wife and I had talked to an architect about building a high quality Italian deli. (There have been some great Italian restaurants in my wife's family). Lastly, if Jefferson started looking like it was going to become a major thoroughfare, it would still be a great location for many businesses. But that would be someone else, not for our home or the kind of Italian deli we had planned. We figured that if that happened, we’d probably just sell our land to someone who wanted to develope something on a street with a high traffic count. Many businesses thrive off of high density developments. So as I said, I’m pretty neutral, because I’ll work with whatever comes down the pike.

But as I said I have just a little information to share about some of this string’s discussions. I’ve tried to keep tabs on what’s going on in my neighborhood these past several years. At one time, seems like it was about three years ago, I heard something was cooking regarding the land across the street. I went to the public counter at the city office and asked about it. Someone showed me plans for a mixture of commercial buildings and apartments, and they said it had been approved already. I asked how that could be since it had not gone before any city meeting that I had heard about. They said it was part of a “fast tracked” area and the only people who needed to approve it were on city staff. I had heard a little about the fast track thing, and I knew enough about MU3 (because my property has that zoning) to know there were some limits on what could be done and this apartment concentration looked like it went past those limits. The only thing they said in return was that it was already approved and the property owner could pull building permits anytime they wanted.

Like I said that was a long time ago. I thought the whole apartment idea had died on the vine for some reason, but as we all know it has recently been in the news. Whether it’s the same developer that’s involved now, I do not know. Anyhow, I’m just inputting this information in case anyone finds it interesting.

Tom Suttle

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 17, 2005 4:10:00 PM
Jeff of those projects that I mentioned have so many Seyarto ande Vanhaster fingerprints on them that it is an ignoraant move on your part to ask for proof. Besides all of the good stuff was mostly done before you moved here so I seriously doubt if you remember the events from that time.

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:36:00 PM
Good news everyone! Chicken little lives!! Just read all the posts with his cleverly disguised name . . . Jeff.

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:46:00 PM
Hello 6:46? In what way is Jeff a "chicken little"??? He has said the Seyarto is falling, not the sky. Unlike chicken little, Jeff may be right.

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 17, 2005 7:12:00 PM
Jeff is aligned with the community do nothing whiners. They are really good at complaining and protesting but they have no community accomplishments to tout as their own. It is pathetic.

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 17, 2005 8:43:00 PM
Roy,
How foolish it is to follow your little theories. First I have lived in Murrieta now 8 years. Next you again assume that fingerprints are enough, I asked for proof. You, from your throne ask for proof of Seyarto's guilt of being bought and paid for. I see the improvements you talk of that there were 5 Councilmen sitting during that time period....proof to me that it was a joint venture. But on the other hand I see only 2 Councilmen voting for developers EVERY wish, after they gave them 600K. Now one seems to be proof to me and the other seems to be conjecture on your part.

Yes, but "Chicken Little" did turn out to be right didn't he. I'll take that roll, of predicting my "feel" and "logic" in the face of doubt, but to save this City in the end.

The last question is for Roy...did you graduate High School? Just a question.

And Kelly I love the Chicken Little thing.....I think it was the Mayor who attacked Chicken Little too. LOL.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 7:32:00 AM
Been there knows what he (or she) is talking about. Some city employees were being very naughty when they fudged the old Jefferson apartment approvals. Went beyond the limits, did they? It looks that way. The big question is did they do it with a wink, or even a shove, from someone higher up? Well, well, well. This is going to get interesting. Santa reads this blogger haven and is not pleased to hear about these things. He is stuffing a few city worker stockings with some long overdue anxiety. This could have waited until after Christmas, but that's karma for you!

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:21:00 AM
This 'staff approval' subject has a really familiar sound. Was there some land around Cal Oaks that had belonged to a former planning commission member that had received a very suspicious 'out of bounds' staff approval? I think the subject came up last year some time at a city meeting. Seems like some developer threatened to sue if they didn't get what they had been promised by some staffer. I don't remember the details. Can someone add some informaton to this?

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 1:33:00 PM
This post is for the guy who identifies himself as Jeff:

Well then, I guess I agree with the Mayor. I was referred to this website in a letter to the editor in the Californian a few days back. I decided to check it out. I am assuming that the Jeffrey who wrote the letter in the paper was the same Jeff I am reading in post after post on this blog site. I am sorry, but you do sound like Chicken Little. You talk like there is a political scandal around every corner and our community is in ruins. I've lived in many different communities over the years and this one is a whole lot better than most. The major theme on this site is incessant whining along with unsubstantiated tales of corruption. Frankly, it's not very intelligent and it's a real turnoff. I am disappointed in this blog because it looks like it is just a forum for political bashers. I've contributed my two cents, so I'm out of here.

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 6:26:00 PM
Thanks Kelly.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 7:58:00 PM
6:26 - You may think your comments were worth two cents, but that's a vast overvaluation. Your exit is a welcome event. Sorry you stayed so long. Most people who are on here are raising legitimate questions and trying to make sense out of some senseless looking activity that has gone on in our city government. The greatest amount of "bashing", as you call it, was done by the very people you imply are being bashed. It was done just prior to the recall election, at a cost of over half a million dollars, and was paid for by developers who are making a fortune off of this town. For you to come on here and attempt in your frail way to insult the people who had to endure that massive bashing campaign just shows your own prejudices and lack of common sense. So don't let anyone force you to continue being "disappointed" by what you read here. Be gone. And good riddance.

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 9:15:00 PM
ME I was talking about who Jeff supports vs who I support. I support people that actually accomplish deeds versus people who just move their lips and expell large volumes of air and accomplish nothing. What are you going to do next ME? Are you going to post something about my family like you did to Mr. McCallister? I am not here to crow about myself. I am here to critique the selfish stupidity of the RM agenda.

Jeff how many projects do you want me to list with the past votes that lead to these projects being a reality today? I can show you where the losers would have lead us if they had their way over the last 8 or ten years.

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 9:24:00 PM
Go ahead Roy educate me.

I have heard that it is Little Mac that brought the subject of family into the recall. Hiding behind all the falsehoods and the truth was exposed. Come on you, you know family values. Thats what it's all about or am I wrong? Or are family values only used if someone is gay? I'm confused.
Let's ask Mr. Ackerman, he advertises family values. Mr Ackerman has Dougie shown this community family values?

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 9:32:00 PM
I forgot, who I support?

I see that Gibbs stood up after he caved in to the lawsuit. Better late then never.

Enochs and Ostling stood up to the lawsuit and then voted against the developer, who built that walled fortress. Are they worried about terrorists attacking....just a thought.

And how did McAlister and Seyarto vote? With one hand up for the developer and the other hand extended palm up under the table. I guess you know who people who think about looking under the table side with.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 9:37:00 PM
OK Rholmgren, I'll stick up for ME who asked you what accomplishments you have achieved. ME was answering your assertion that:

"Jeff is aligned with the community do nothing whiners. They are really good at complaining and protesting but they have no community accomplishments to tout as their own."

Nothing but whiners, eh? What -- are you blind? Did you not see the number of volunteers out gathering signatures and campaigning during the recall? You call that nothing but whining? Those people really did get something done. They got JvH recalled and probably ended KS's dream of a political career. They forced Dan Stephenson to come out from behind the curtain and show this community who is really bankrolling KS and DM and the current City administration.

ME was asking you to just name one thing you've done that stands in that same category. If you cannot, then maybe you are the one that only whines.

But you have no such accomplishments -- so you are the whiner. You whine about RM and all those who actually got off their duffs and went out into the community and worked. The fact that they got involved and actually did something is what you are whining about.

Your one-note refrain is completely off key. Hey Rholmgren the shoes fit, so put on your whining slippers.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 9:58:00 PM
Jeff you are trying to use the beliefs of a faction of the Republican party to make the rest of us look like the KKK and gay bashers. I have alot of Republican friends Jeff and all of them would never deny others their civil rights. I have said before that I am not against gay marraige. I also want JC Watts to run for President. We are not racists. At least Bush has positioned people of color in high power positions. For the life of me I cannot name one minority that the Democrats have placed in a power position. They are all white. I guess they only pay lip service to being all inclusive. (more like exclusive)

Jeff you are also wrong about us basing our power on fear. Our power is derived from taking control of our lives and making the most of our talents.We then make thing happen. Bush took control of the Terrorist situation by creating an Iraqi battlefield that the Terrorists are flocking to. It is better that they fight the world's best military over there than threaten civilians over here.The people on your side think like losers and say the war is unwinnable. If you think like a loser you will lose. They are looking like buffoons as we gradually win over Iraq. We have done more in Iraq in three years than we did for Post-war Germany in five. Are we still in Germany? To the victor goes the spoils. There is only peace through victory. We also know how to set an agenda and follow through with it. Did you know that Dean stated last week that the DEM's will not have an alternative agenda for next year's election? He just says it is enough to be against Bush. OK fine be against Bush but at least articulate your agenda so we know where the alternative will take us.
But you know what Jeff they know that if their agendas are revealed that they will certainly lose. And that is why they reveal so little about what they believe.
Jeff you asked me if I graduated High School. I will answer your question with a question: Did you graduate Grade School? There you go Jeff a stupid answer for a stupid question.

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 10:17:00 PM
Mr. Faunce I said that the recall was your 15 minutes of fame. Other than that you and your group have done absolutely nothing tangible in our community. NOTHING. I am just a supporter of an agenda that is the opposite of yours. and I am here to support those that further that agenda. I am looking forward and I see little from your side that will lead to anything positive happening in this town. I just see tactics that lead people to have a false perception as to what is really happening here in town. (Jeff)I just see a group of people that always harp on our city's growing pains while ignoring the plethora of positive accomplishments around our city. The negativity is uninspiring.

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 10:29:00 PM
Rholmgren, your undying support for the corporate interests is destroying the American dream -- community by community.

Jeff has tried to elevate your understanding that businesses only have one standard, to make money. They do that by charging as much as they can for as little as they can get away with. But, they get an added leg up on the rest of us if they can financially capture our governmental officials and obtain favorable treatment.

While you say that RM has done nothing, you foolishly discount the political climate change in this City. While you may disagree with what has been done, the very fact that you are on this blog bleating out your johnny-one-note mantra day-after-day, shows that you are reacting to that change.

Oh yeah, you wish that RM's impact was only a single council member recalled. But, once again, you are wrong. The Murrieta political landscape has been permanently altered. And those you claim have done absolutely nothing, are the ones who accomplished this monumental task.

We expect no kudos from your side -- the dark side. But it makes no difference, you have to deal with the new reality and we are largely responsible for it.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:48:00 PM
Murrieta T,
Your right that ALL corporations are not the end all evil. We the public are at fault as we are the naive followers. Your correct also in your assessment of Irvine, I also look to Rancho Santa Margarita as areas which have gone in a different direction then the rest of Orange County and done planning with a different perspective, laying the infrastructure first.

What you are also right about is Corporate America should be about hard work. But the developers (corporations we are talking about here)coming to Murrieta have not had to work hard. It's been laid in their laps by our City government. They laid out a plan and got whatever they have wanted at the cheapest price to them. Instead of these government officials making restrictions high, they made them low. The lower the better. Instead of good profits, these developers have made their fortunes here at the residents expense. I agree with the lush greenery and walking trails and beautiful parks and would pay higher taxes to get this community looking that way. But too many are happy with "fortress looking" developments, house after house packed into small areas. Now the future of the buildout is low income housing, not the greenery, not the walking trails.

We do need businesses and corporations but we need controls on them. When government is governed by the corporations we have what.....profits that are not a benefit to the people but to the corporations who pay off government. It is not the American way that our forefathers dreamed of is it?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 19, 2005 2:37:00 PM
I agree with Murrieta T. It was not the corporate culture that messed with us in Murrieta any more than it was a particular political party. There are however people who will abuse both corporate and political structures to satisfy their own greedy desires. In the end, those kind of people are exposed by their own greed. They begin misusing their power. They build or approve projects which are not in the best interest of the city. They start walking the thin line between that which is legal and that which is corrupt. It is the job of public minded citizens to make sure that line is not crossed, and if it is crossed to make sure something is done about it. Something like recall elections, and like the ongoing input and information provided by public spirited citizens on sites like this and in the newspapers.

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 19, 2005 4:21:00 PM
Every time I hear someone bash Coporate America I keep have historical flashbacks of the Bolshevik Revolution. Come on comrad Faunce please lay off with your attacks on the bread and butter of America's capitalistic economic machine. It would serve you better to stay local with the issues because you bleed red when you start talking about economic and National topics.

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 19, 2005 8:11:00 PM
Hey Roy,
I really think after what's going on in the National Political scene you are the one that should watch how vocal you get. Instead of Communism it looks more like Facism. OPPS...I better watch what I write I may have a wiretap on my Keyboard. LOL. Unbelieveable.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 19, 2005 8:27:00 PM
You are bothered that someone might know what you are writing? Would it bother you equally if a message was intercepted by those same snoopy people if that interception kept your family from being toasted by a terrorist? Of course, that's impossible. There's no such thing as terrorists. That terrorist garbage is just exaggerated propaganda being broadcast to people whose tv sets are locked in to fox. Does that sound about right to you? No need to answer, I can read your thoughts. You can beam Jeff up now, Scotty.

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 19, 2005 8:57:00 PM
Murrieta T,
Is that not what I have been saying? It is only our own fault if we let the remainder of the buildout get away. We have to make all Corporations accountable....again read above. Who is the City watchdog group?

8:57- FEAR.....thats all you know. Go stick you head in a hole in the ground....and they'll take everything you have and all we have earned. All your privacy will be gone and what do you have left? Didn't this happen about 67 years ago? Fear. LOL...Unbelievable.

Jeff

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 19, 2005 10:42:00 PM
All, before we get all choked up defending corporations, I invite y'all to read "The Corporation: The Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power" by Joel Bakan, a Canadian law professor who traces the corporation's rise to dominance beginning in the sixteenth century.

Bakan makes the following points:

* Corporations are required by law to elevate their own interests above those of others, making them prone to prey upon and exploit others without regard for legal rules or moral limits.

* Corporate social responsibility, though sometimes yielding positive results, most often serves to mask the corporation's true character, not to change it.

* The corporation's unbridled self interest victimizes individuals, the environment, and even shareholders, and can cause corporations to self-destruct, as recent Wall Street scandals reveal.

* Despite its flawed character, governments have freed the corporation from legal constraints through deregulation, and granted it ever greater power over society through privatization

My point is, given the narrow range of business interest, Murrietans are not well served by cowtowing to corporate interest. Common ordinary residents desiring a loveable, liveable and sustainable community are better able to set Murrieta's policies than those Council members who are owned by the corporate developers.

Res ipsa loquitur - the thing speaks for itself.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 6:49:00 AM
8:57-
Aren't you more worried about the things that can really affect your family, like the effects of alcohol and smoking on our society? Oh I forgot thats Corporate America we are talking about. How about the sexual predators, or for that matter crime and gangs. I feel that these problems which kill EVERY DAY the same amount of people that died in the 9-11 disaster in one day, are what I need to worry about. Maybe you should be writing the President and asking why he got an F on his 9-11 commission report card. But then if he fixes that he won't have time to wire tap a political opponent. LOL.

The chances are much higher that a drunk driver slams into a family member then Al Queda attacking them. Wouldn't ya think? But then again.....youre scared of EVERYTHING. Have they stole your Christmas yet?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 6:55:00 AM
Jeff - I am the paranoid one? Wow. I'm sorry I wrote. Had no idea what it would bring out of the woodwork of your mind. Of course we do have to be concerned about drunk drivers. Had a hair of the dog recently, Jeff? We don't have to worry about the al Zaquari types driving while drunk of course. They don't drink. We just have to be concerned about them setting off terrorist nukes while their brains fizz on adrenaline stimulated by support from people who are exactly like you. No, Jeff, not like Clinton. He's not stupid. I said like you.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:00:00 AM
Mr. Faunce should I believe every thing I read? Why don't you read Mein Kampf and then repeat your Latin phrase Res ipsa loquitur. Isn't that book you mentioned Leftist propaganda?

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 12:04:00 PM
Right Rholmgren, everything you disagree with is leftist propaganda.

Maybe this book is not for you.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 1:50:00 PM
And another thing, Rholmgren, when I said Res Ipsa Loquitur, I was referring to the fact that ordinary Murrietans, whose range of interest in their community is broader than a company's quarterly profit and loss statement, are in a better position to enunciate City policy than those whose range of interest is restricted to some company(s) bottom line. I was not referring to the Professor Bakan's book.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 1:56:00 PM
Welcome back Murrieta T. I missed having your voice of reason around.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 2:34:00 PM
Murrieta T, Rholmgren and all the other right wing addicts, how come you always attack the person posting. It's plain to see that you have absolutely no answers to questions Ed Faunce and Jeff bring up. You lives are in the dumper and your defense is to attack people who are just being reasonable. Jeff is right, you are all scared. The more afraid you become the more you approve of a police state that is occurring. I always thought this country would take the high road but we are surely taking the low road. You absolutely hate anyone asking questions of Republicans. You hate it so much that you get flustered and start throwing out your hate. What answers have you come up with to the problems of the world besides sitting home panicking abour dirty bombs. Like Jeff said, why aren't you complaining about the failures to live up to the 9-11 commission if t what your main excuses are fear of a nuke. You hide when that is mentioned
Just a thought.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 4:58:00 PM
MT,
I looked back and all I saw was you laughing at the guy telling them to beam me up. I didn't mind that. We are all a little crazy. I think it's the guy you were laughing and doing a little of the conservative belittling and Roy's attacks on Ed Faunce.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 8:44:00 PM
Did that last line make any sense, even to you, Jeff?

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:06:00 PM
sounds to me, we have some geniuses in Murrieta that are convinced they have all the answers and the other side is just stupid and wrong. They have nothing more to learn, they already know everything! I should be honored to live amongst such enlightened people! But I am tired of their arrogant know- it- all attitudes, the constant verbal abuse and defensiveness. Rholgrem on the far right, Faunce amd Jeff on the far left, spilling hatred and theories that is supposed to enlighten us? You must have nothing better to do with your lives. Perhaps at this Christmas time we could count our blessings and focus on whats right rather than always concentrating on what we think is wrong! Get out and take a nice walk, do some good in your neighborhoods, you will feel better by making Murrieta a nicer place to live. We have a job to do as citizens in this town, its not up to 5 council members to make us happy. Grow up, calm down and use all that energy more productively. This blog is boring!

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:14:00 PM
Hi 10:14 - Yes indeedy doo, this is a good time to get out and take a walk in Murrieta. Do it now before the traffic that is going to be caused by a zillion apartments and condos makes it hard to cross a street. But... there is a good side to waiting to take that walk. That good side is all the friends you'll find hanging out in droves on street corners. Young people without cars who can't stand the crowded conditions in those low-rung elbow-rubbing apartment, and who want to get outdoors and hang around with their gangs. Those are the neighbors you're going to have if Kelly Seyarto finishes the job he's doing on this town. You sound like a nice person, 10:14. You deserve to live in a town that is nice today and in the future as well. No one has all the answers, but stopping the self-serving agenda of Kelly Seyarto and his greedy mass housing developer friends is one answer we can all agree on. Merry Christmas to you, my blog bored neighbor!

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:23:00 PM
Don't you all see what this is about? We are making noise here. We are advertising to come here our comments, right or wrong. The two Councilmen, the Chamber of Commerce, City Management, and the Developers will start to infiltrate and they will make comments on how illogical we all are. They will say this site is boring and how we should just appreciate everything have have and smell the coffee. They want others reading this to get the idea we are just whiners and complainers. They don't want another RM coimg of age. They will call the right the right and the left the left but don't let it happen. The Seyarto's, McAlister's, VanHaaster's, Stephenson's, Moss' are either writing these anon posts or are directing them to be written. Make our accusations look false and whining. This my friends is what it is...the VanHaaster agenda. Get Jack back, keep Kelly and take back this City. That will be the next 11 months. Don't let these unethical politicians take our City and run it down. They will and it will be our own fault. We have this one last chance to stand up and vote them out, make a statement.

Isn't that all true Kelly? It's too bad you don't have the guts to come back here and answer but your real bosses, the developers have put out the gag order. But you are just the Bully in all this. You are just their pawn. Too bad Mr Mayor. LOL......but we will see your picture plastered all over the Murrieta Insider for the rest of the year....mark my words.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 6:59:00 AM
If you have lived anywhere near areas which have combinations of busy commercial streets and 'lowrung' heavily populated housing complexes, you know the thoughts at 11.14 are true. These kind of neighborhoods have very high concentrations of kids (I mean 'young men' mostly) standing around for hours or wandering in groups mainly at night. That is the plain truth which can be seen in those kind of areas. If anyone wants to know if those are good towns to live in I recommend you go to one of those areas take a walk down one of those streets at night. Don't do it alone. If Mr. Seyarto and Mr. MacAllister live in this town, how could they consider making Murrieta one of those kind of places?

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:26:00 AM
Just for the record: Someone above refered to the hatred that people on this blog have for one another. Please do not confuse disagreement and sarcasm with hatred. I am not motivated by hatred, and I will bet that most of the participants here are the same way. We are just passionate about our beliefs and care about our community. I am sure that some people take this blog more seriously than others. T I was happy to see that you saw some humor in my reference to "comrade Faunce" ( Sorry for getting a laugh at you expense Mr Faunce) Jeff it may be a good idea to stop following the party platform that refers to Republicans as haters. Jeff do you really think that those of us that oppose you here hate you? Think about it and respond.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:57:00 AM
Roy,
In the beginning dealing with your comments of being punched in the nose and coward and the like, are not phrases of disagreement, however, I have learned that no one on here hates anyone. I think the hatred is by the people who have big money invested and at risk here. I believe the development community and their "pawns" hate this site and all that contribute in a way that can and possibly will hurt their pocketbooks.

To all Ive offended and to all that Ive inspired and to all period. Have a wonderful Christmas season and enjoy your time with family throughout. Please be safe if travelling. Roy, have a wonderful Holiday.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 1:28:00 PM
Someone made an entry in this web site which said Steve Mandoki (the previous city manager) was a good person who got caught up in the shady mess other people were making. Since Steve can't speak for himself (his golden parachute had strings attached) I want to also say something on his behaf. Mandoki was in most ways a very competent city manager. No complaints from those who knew him best. So look at the timing of what happened. Mandoki (who had been around for many years) got the ax just when the recall matter was starting to reach full steam. The recall would never have reached full steam if Kelly Seyarto was not such a public mess maker with his never ending enemy making style of talking, which is dumb beyond words. The old mayor made some bad mistakes but Kelly Seyarto's personality managed to turn those mistakes into front page news. As a round a bout result Mandoki was turned into a money muted sacrifice, with a year's full pay (kept on payroll for doing basically zilch for one year for what reason? For the most obvious reason.) Someone on the blog site said Mandoki was a JvH victim, and K Seyarto wanted to keep him on. From my perspective that's mostly right. But the mayor at that time would rather not have axed Mandoki. It was because of Seyarto the mayor had no real options. Mandoki was another K Seyarto victim, plain and simple. As it has been said, the only thing more dangerous than being a K.S. enemy is being his friend (or for that matter the people he supposedly represents). The exception is if he thinks you can give him powerful political support in the future. He's careful about protecting his housing industry supporters and that goes directly to his buttering up the state government's housing reps. Maybe some day Steve Mandoki will be able to tell the whole truth about the ax the old and present mayors used on his neck, but don't bet on it.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 2:15:00 PM
Jeff's thoughts are far enough "out there" that some times he must have to return to the Mother Ship for mental nourishment. But the beamer post was wrong. Jeff's Mother Ship would not have Scotty on board. Maybe Ruth Bader Ginzberg. Maybe Jane Fonda (in some of her many incarnations). But please, nobody needs to insult the Trekkies.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:15:00 PM
You people and your darth vader masks and the beaming up bs might think you’re cute but there are some people who are logging on to look for useful information. We’d be grateful if you’d take your meaningless chit chat to some place where readers have nothing better to do than to read that kind of garbage. As for the person who keeps coming up with empty pieces of trivia about the former city manager, why don’t you put your questions directly to him? If he’s the man you think he is, he’ll tell you everything you want to know. Let us know how that turns out.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 6:36:00 PM
6:36, Do you know what a serverance agreement is? Most have a non-disclosure clause and trust me any that are for a period of one year have that clause. This guy can't talk or he gives up his package and owes the money he has already received back. Why would he talk, to make you happy?

But we have to to logically see, which I know is hard for many of you, that he was given a year so he would keep his mouth shut.

There is much corruption in our City Government and I would like to know who the watchdog group is?

5:15-- You seem very disturbed.....did the liberals steal your Christmas? And you better not talk about Mother Ships too loud either...Uncle George might think it has WMD'S and wiretap your phone.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:08:00 PM
6:36 Me and my close friend George have been wiretapping Jeff and the other RMer's phones for months. We have figured out that they are not Trekies. Invasion of the Bodysnatchers would best describe what is going on behind closed doors. Serious news needs a lighter side. Deal with it.

Jeff I have been measuring local roads but as of yet I have no measurement for Jefferson. There was too much traffic to try. I am also looking for what I would consider the "ideal" 6 lane road. So far it looks like the ideal 4 lane road is 85 to 88 feet wide.

It is time to go now. Me and George need to go and infringe on someone's civil rights. Do you think that any of the dead 9/11 victims are worried about their civil rights being violated?

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:22:00 PM
I don't know about the 3000 innocent victims that died on 9-11 Roy, but how about asking some of the 6,000 per day that die from smoking diseases caused by the Tobacco industry. Thats what we need to be afraid of, not some imaginary WMD's. Or maybe the 4,000 per day that die from alcohol related diseases. 10,000 today from those two mulit-billion dollar Corporations. Can we wiretap them? How small is 9-11 in comparison to product causing diseases, but then its not about death is it, its about money.

I have written our Councilmen and asked who are the local city government watchdog groups. Lets see who answer me first. Maybe Arnie knows?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:55:00 PM
Except at major intersections, between MHS and Elm Jefferson is 86 feet. If any wants to know what the City adopted 1998 as the City's road designs, check out the Standard Drawings on the Public Works web page. No 6 lane, 86 foot roads are shown there. The only place you will find it is on the Circulation map on the Planning Dept. web page.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:01:00 PM
To LOLlipop Jeff: OK let's now moan about smokers. The only candidate for any office that has ever publically sworn undying love for the tobacco industry was that jerk Republican Al Gore. Oh, yeah, dems are off limits to ol' LOLlipop. What's in your pipe today, Jeff? Heard from the Mother Ship lately? I heard Al was on board having some Saigon Tea with Jane. The Mad Hatter was there, too. They toasted you. We toast you too, LOLlipop.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:15:00 AM
9:55 - I've never seen anyone compare the 9/11 victims to people who die as a result of the choice someone makes to smoke or drink. "How small is 9-11 in comparison..." you wrote. With that kind of compaison you could throw in the evil of public beaches where people get melanoma that they end up dying from. And those lifeguards who do not stop sunbathers are themselves the equal of terrorist hijackers. You're right, 9:55. By comparison, those terrorists are like charity workers. Do you ever wonder why people have a hard time taking people like you seriously?

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:12:00 AM
Has anyone looked into the connection of Lori Moss to Jack VanHaaster......very interesting. Was she specifically chosen by Jack?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 22, 2005 1:34:00 PM
Lori Moss was selected as City Manager by van Haaster, Seyarto and McAlister. Although the vote was 5-0 to hire her, Ostling and Enochs were presented with a final decision. Because they knew that they were out voted (this all happened on 9/28/04) they went along with the decision to keep "peace in the family."

There can be no question but that the three council members and Lori Moss had already "met and discussed" what was going to happen.

How do we know that? Because at the 9/28/04 council meeting it was announced that Moss had been selected and, despite her public show of surprise, she was already prepared with a PowerPoint presentation showing how she was re-organizing the City staff, i.e., appointing new Assistant City Managers (naming them) and even the salaries they would be receiving.

Clearly she had advance notice of what was going to happen or she could not have been prepared with the powerpoint presentation. Furthermore, during the recall signature gathering, one individual claimed that the three council men met privately with Lori Moss at a developer's office in Temecula just shortly before she was appointed as the new City Manager.

Now, LM sits on the Chamber Board of Directors, along with van Haaster, just waiting for the next election when it is obviously planned that the developer's control over the City Council will be re-established. Meanwhile, LM will keep whatever secrets that the trio feared Mandoki might reveal.

It's not a pretty picture.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:16:00 PM
Jeff, The way the city council deck was stacked at the time, she was the clear choice of either vahH or KS. Enochs was not happy, Ostling had similar feelings. Little Mac's thoughts on this matter were unclear, maybe even to him. Since KS really did not want Mandoki gone, it is possible Moss was offered up as a consolation prize by vanH. Or maybe they both trusted her to keep certian secrets quiet, because she had as much to lose as they did. So far, there has been no real clue on the answer to this interesting question. But it is a known fact that almost every city of this size will conduct a wide-net (statewide if not national) search for a city manager with credentials far beyond those of Moss. That alone makes the motives behind her elevation to City Manager very suspicious.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:36:00 PM
Sorry for not being up to speed here, but when she was hired and she brought in "high" salaried assistants were these same positions already in place before in the City Management? Was her salary higher then the gentlemen she replaced? Was she appointed to the Chamber of Commerce after she was named City Manager?

With all this asked, what I am implying is that if a City Manager was bought off with a one year severance package, it is usually not because he failed but because the City failed him OR he was just plain bought off. A new, weakly qualified City Mananger brought in and surrounded by highly paid Helpers and then she is named to the C of C along with the Mayor that got recalled? Has ANYONE investigated this from the outside? This smells to high heaven. Doesn't this just all fit the same pattern of unethical behavior, from Jack to Kelly to Lori to Little Mac? Come on guys?
Can't we have someone from a watchdog group look into this and report whats going on. Someone will talk, they always do.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 22, 2005 3:19:00 PM
Here's the Californian Article concerning LM's appointment.
Edward Faunce
____________________________

9/29/04 Murrieta names Moss as city manager

By: LAURA MITCHELL - Staff Writer
MURRIETA ---- The City Council on Tuesday named Assistant City Manager Lori Moss as its city manager, replacing Steve Mandoki, who officially leaves the position Friday.

The council voted unanimously to appoint Moss as city manager, but 4-1 to approve her contract, with Councilman Warnie Enochs casting the dissenting vote.

"I'm glad we have moved through this transition and we're back to business," said Mayor Jack van Haaster of the council's decision.
The action occurred a week after the City Council and Mandoki, the city manager since 1998, agreed to end his contract with Murrieta. He will remain as a consultant with the city for the next 12 months. Some council members had expressed dissatisfaction with aspects of Mandoki's performance.

After Moss' appointment was announced, she thanked the council and pledged to work hard. Then, she outlined her reorganization of the city's administration. She named Chris Paxton, the city's human resources director, Teri Ferro, the director of finance, and Jim Holston, the community services director, as deputy city managers, which are new posts.

The appointments were effective immediately as Moss has the authority as city manager to make administrative changes, van Haaster said after the meeting.

Moss said her favorite aspect of city government is economic development and she wants to keep that responsibility in the city manager's office. Administrative Services Manager Al Vollbrecht will head economic development, she said.

Moss was hired as an assistant city manager in 1999, when she left the Riverside County Economic Development Agency, where she was the assistant director of desert operations.

The number of Murrieta employees has not grown in proportion to the city's population, Moss said. Her reorganization would make the most efficient use of employees, she said.

Moss said she thought it was important to promote long-term city employees to the deputy positions.

Paxton will oversee human resources as well as the administration of the police and fire departments. A new director of human resources will be hired to replace Paxton.

Ferro will be responsible for the library, information technology and geographic information systems, the city clerk's office and the finance department, which will need a new director to replace Ferro.

Holston will oversee engineering, planning, building and safety and community services. A new director of community services will be hired to replace Holston.

A majority of council members said they were excited about Moss's reorganization and supported her changes.

"I'm thrilled with the direction," Councilman Doug McAllister said. "It's encouraging to see that not only have we acted decisively, but so has our city manager."

Van Haaster called Moss's ideas "refreshing." Councilman Kelly Seyarto said it's the council's responsibility to hire city managers and then let them do their job.

"I promise to support you in that effort," he said.

Enochs said he is pleased the city is moving forward with a new manager.

"Now, I think there is something to look forward to," he said, addressing Moss. "I feel you're going to jump in and start a fire. ... I think this is a plus for our city."

The only resistance to Moss' reorganization came from Councilman Richard Ostling, who said he had concerns with having three deputy city managers.

"I have a problem with sometimes having more chiefs than Indians," Ostling said.

But Moss responded that the structure is designed to help the city administration in providing services to an ultimate population of 110,000. The population now is estimated at nearly 78,000.

"There's enough work to be done here," she said.

Moss will make the same salary as Mandoki made, $161,340 a year, van Haaster said. Mandoki will continue to make $161,340 a year as a consultant.

In voting against her contract, Enochs did not say what his concerns were. The council discussed the details of the contract in a closed session before voting to appoint Moss.

Contact staff writer Laura Mitchell at (951) 676-4315, Ext. 2621, or

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:22:00 PM
Hmmm, Murrieta T... I like your input, but I'm not sure about the "phenomenal" bit. It is true the city offices are funcioning better at the moment. But seven things come immediately to mind that have to be considered. 1) A mass of money has been spent by Moss which helps in the short run to bolster the appearance of success 2) City workers have been under pressure to perform since her hiring, if for no other reason than for the sake of their jobs 3) It is not hard for staff to temporarily gloss over problems, making reports in the first year of a Manager look good. Not a cooking of the books, but a little warming you might say 4) She has a better PR campaign with the Californian than Mandoki. There is a hint of comraderie between her and an otherwise very objective reporter. 5) The other paper, the PE, was dumbfounded by the defeat of the Mayor in the recall, in spite of that paper's very blatant endorsement of the previous ruling clique. That makes them more prone to make the old appointee (Moss) made by the old clique, look like a phenomenal choice. 6) The recall result was such that Enochs, Gibbs and Ostling have a very clear interest in making it look like their administration as a ruling majority is going smoothly. The implications of this are obvious. 7) Moss knows the who's who of Republican political string pulling in this town. Mandoki was not a pol. Moss is actually looked on more favorably by higher up Republicans than Seyarto. In the short run, she can milk that advantage. In the long run, it won't matter at all. What all seven of these point add up to is a political honeymoon and some good PR for Moss. How long that will last is the question.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:42:00 PM
Knowing large Corporations as I do, why would you start an assistant at the same amount as an experienced player, pay him the exact same as a consultant and then hire three more assistants to her at another 300K? So you are now spending a 600K+ dollars for a group, when you were paying 160K for someone who was not doing a good job and then hire him back at the same salary. Something is hidden in this equation. I guess if any of us took a job and then hired three managers to run the different areas, it is they who are doing the good job and we would be sitting back delegating. Do we need to pay someone $160K to delegate? So the Republican party pushed her up and then padded the management staff with talent to make her look good? Or was it to make JVH look good? Or KS to look good. I looked at some of the titles of City Management and see a lot of repetition. Is our City Management over staffed?

MT, you made a very bold blanket statement. She's doing a phenomenal job. If someone said I was doing that well, there would be countless accomplishments....what are they? I'm just being educated here, but something doesn't smell right.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:13:00 PM
The 442 entry is right about Moss' rising political status. Seyarto makes points with people who like him when he speaks or writes but invariably he also engergizes his opponents. To some in the party he looks more and more like a political liability. Moss is still new to power but entries in this topic string mark the first time Ive seen her politics recognized in public. Politically she has a light but effective touch. For those who know her there is something ironic about this which I wont go into here. (You won't be able to guess it.) I have not heard yet what Seyarto thinks about this, possibly because hes silently fuming about the whole thing.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 23, 2005 9:11:00 AM
Ed Faunce,
I was led to a web site that was recommended to me by one of our City Councilmen. "The Institute for local governemnt". It is where some of the ideas for our Councils ethics plan are coming from. Reading through some of the suggested ethics issues I find some things that fit what is happening throughout our city, but not for the good. Anyone else who cares to do a little deeper reading check out this site http://www.cacities.org/index.jsp
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 23, 2005 3:35:00 PM
Jeff, you have landed on the website for the California League of Cities, a very powerful lobby group in California.

I dare say, however, that the League has its own axe to grind and may not be the best source for "ethics" applicable to Cities.

The League is very political and is undoubtedly "hooked" up with the development community similarly to Murrieta.

Consider, that KS is Murrieta's representative to the League (or at least he was). Now, is KS going to forget his alliances to the developers just because he's sitting in a League meeting? Not likely. More likely, he will engage in the type of networking that will actually enhance his developer contacts, at least regionally.

There is no escaping the tenacles of the monied interests. Once they "own" a politician, they have the Pol no matter what forum s/he's attending.

That's why it is so important to Murrietans (and all other Cities as well) to identify persons who do not have familial, business and financial dependency on the developers' community.

Now, before I'm accused of being no or slow growth, let me say that we need developers. But we don't need developers who try to buy access to our policy makers. The developers need to stand before the Council dias -- equally -- and present their ideas concerning development according to City policy.

I did not spend much time looking at the League's website. However, I know that San Bernardino County recently hired a UCLA Law Professor, specializing in public agency ethics, to assist them in dealing with some long standing ethical violations and issues. I would think that such a source would be far more resident friendly and developer neutral than are the League's pronouncements.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 23, 2005 3:53:00 PM
My impression is that the City Manager and the Mayor and the housing developers and the Chamber and the League and the local socalled Republican clique have a very firm hold on power in the city of Murrieta. How do you people intend to do anything about it? In the end the greater force wins. I think most of you on this web blog are fighting a lost cause, and the recall of Mayor vanHaaster was a huge fluke. Some of you are engaging in guessing games about what's going on behind closed doors. Why? What's the point? You're all taking shots in the dark, and some of those shots are ludicrous. Give it up. Get a life. Chill out.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 23, 2005 5:37:00 PM
If anyone can show proof that Lori Moss and Mayor Seyarto are in conflict or that the Republican Party has any agenda that would divide the two of them or favor one over the other then show proof or shut up. Kelly Seyarto is not seen as a "liability" by anyone who knows him, and he is doing what is best for this city. Some people complain who do nothing for this city, ever, and they have no right to be critical of those who are working hard to make a difference.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 23, 2005 5:53:00 PM
Can PROOF be shown of even ONE of the seven items enumerated above at 4:42? And 9:11 what's so ironic about a City Manager who gets along with politicians? Is that not what they are SUPPOSED TO DO???
You people are INCREDIBLE. That means what it says. IN (not) CREDIBLE (worthy of credit). But do you give credit where credit is due? NO! Fortunately the people you are criticizing are ABOVE the level of stinking nonsense you serve up on a daily basis. People read what you write and they LAUGH at you. That's why I read what you write. I laugh at all of you until I about split a gut.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 23, 2005 7:22:00 PM
I promised this would come. The developers, the Chamber of Commerce, the relatives and families of the three unethical thieves have begun the drive to November. They will belittle us, call us names, call us crazy. They need to keep the normal everyday resident from hearing the logic that is brought to this site. All they have, is to attack us. They can't defend any of these great feats of mastery by Seyarto, McAlister and the main crook VanHaaster. They will attack and we need to keep moving forward or we will fail. The anons could be the bully Seyarto all by himself. It easily could be the same person. But this is the way of todays politics. They don't come out and say......well seyarto did this and he did that and he is so great because he did this. They don't have that information to throw at us because he is hurting this city. We have laid out the reasoning and logic. They have not. It isn't a good reason, nor a logical one for someone to just say Seyarto has done good things.....I ask them what? But they have nothing to answer back with except.....Jeff your an idiot and a traitor and this and that. That today is the defense of unethical politicians. They have done nothing good, so they attack their critics and feel that will save them. It didn't save VanHaaster. He was recalled. What an embarrassement to be viewed by the public as an unethical crook. Same with Seyarto. More then 45% of this town feel he's a failure. More will listen.....we just have to keep getting the facts out there. When we start to mention getting a watchdog group in.....they panicked.....more anon posts. Before that nothing. There are some skeletons here and we need them to fall out of the closet.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 23, 2005 9:32:00 PM
It is clearly time for people like Councilman Seyarto and City Manager Lori Moss to be defended from the vague accusations constantly being thrown at them by people who have never done anything to help their community. If they want ANONs to identify themselves, let them first identify specifically the grounds for their accusations. Jeff in particular has charged that certain named people are corrupt. If he can not prove it, then he is the one who is corrupt.

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 24, 2005 8:37:00 AM
This is my first and last input. This blog is indeed boring, I agree with a previous writer. Now that means to some of you, I am not as intellectual as you ( what a joke, but one has to consider the source from a pumped up individual on this blog.) You are participating in electronic internet gossip, do you really think you are so smart? Unless you actually worked on the Council and/or have real knowledge about the City works instead of wild speculations, maybe then you have valuable input! You are giving KS so much power, he must laugh every day he visits this blog. (If he does read it, that is!)
I thought now the council dynamics has changed and we watch what happens and give it a chance. So far, I believe, only one new development has even been brought before council, they are all old previously approved or considered projects. I guess some of you believe there has to be a group of people pushing their agenda, then making it sound like they are representing the people! But they are really just looking to find people/members to support their ideas! Hmmmmmmm!

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 24, 2005 9:16:00 AM
8:37, Kelly or Jack or what ever developer you are,

Over the last 6 months many many times on this blog many of us have laid out our logic for the accusations we make. The logic is indisputable. A development group, backed by the Murrieta Chamber of Commerce raised over 600K to support the three Councilmen that were sited in the recall election. Why would all the developers care if a City Council member was recalled. What LOGICALLY would be their motive to keep them in power in a community?????? Let me think....ah .....ah.....because anything they wanted passed was getting passed at no expense to the Developer??? Or maybe they just had 600K laying around? Now any person who has any reasoning ability can understand this. Corporations DON'T give money for politicians unless they want something back in return. It isn't good business. They bought their votes. But unethical Jack was voted out and left arrogant Kelly and follow the leader McAlister behind. So we now have two bought and paid for Councilmen. If a developer that contributed to their defense wants something, Kelly and Little Mac vote for them with each vote. When Council Gibbs called a developers plan a glorified slum and the three reasonable Councilmen voted NO against the developer. Where did Seyarto and McAlister vote??? YES...of course....YES. They have been bought and paid for. Being ethical doesn't always entail just following the law as I have just learned. It is about perception.

So now you think I'm corrupt, but I have no interest except making my community better. What is the logical reasoning for you thinking these two are not corrupt as I have laid out mine? Come back and tell me....why would Seyarto vote YES and McAlister for YES for a development that was called a glorified slum???? They are crooks and have to pay back they supporters as they need their money in the upcoming election.

It is not impossible 8:37 and 9:16 is not Seyarto posting. It is likely it is or someone else I challenge here. So now I answered you, I don't care who you are, because again logic tells us all who you are. Residents it is the man or a supporter of the man who would have allowed another Alexander Community glorified slum come into our town.

Watchdog groups will come and investigate all thats gone on here the last few years and what we all believe true will be proved. Lets just hope it is before crooks like VanHaaster, Seyarto and McAlister vote our City into low income housing slums like our neighbors north and northeast of here. If it happens we have ourselves to blame.

And 9:16 or Kelly, Dougie or some other political hack,......I represent me....period. I push my agenda, but I know it's an honest and straightforward agenda, prove ME wrong and I will change....can you say the same...LOL. Who would you give the money back to?? (which mean laughing out loud)Because it wont happen.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 24, 2005 12:30:00 PM
Your new name, LoLlipop, is hilarious. What a swell guy you are, just wanting to make the community better. Proof of your accusations is what is needed, LoLlipop. Can't say who all are who think you're funny, but as for me I'm not Seyarto. Proof, LoLlipop. That's the question YOU need to answer. If you're going to level accusations, then come up with something other than your constant blah blah blah.

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 24, 2005 5:39:00 PM
5:39,
Seems so funny as you are just as arrogant and defensive as Kelly. Seems funny you are so defensive tonight for someone that is just a City Councilmen. Merry Christmas Mayor.

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 24, 2005 5:54:00 PM
Jeff - You're the only one who ever says "a" council"men", which is mixing a singular with a plural. And Oops, you forgot to sign your name. Don't complain about anons, because you play it both ways and we know it. (And no, this is not His Honor the Mayor). Anyway, you are dodging the issue Jeff. The issue of PROOF for ALL the incessant allegations you make. A little detail, eh? Who needs proof when you can smear and smear and smear all day long. And then, you say "Merry Christmas"...? Gosh, Jeff, you seem so insincere. (And silly.)

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 24, 2005 7:50:00 PM
LOL, I have absolutely no reason to hide my comments, gees....I just forgot to type my name at the end. My opinions are not hidden. If 7:50 you need proof for every allegation, then why can someone be convicted of murder if all the signs and logic point that way? Was O.J. innocent? Was Michael Jackson guilty? Are JVH, KS and DM on the take? Novembers vote will answer that question. Kelly, you told me that JVH didn't do anything unethical yet he was recalled. Kelly got only 52% of the votes running against a trainee. Seems to me, if the right people run, he will have to stick to fires. Doug will then be shown for what he is, a know nothing follower. Proof....can be acheived through circumstancial evidence. All logic points to KS and DM as crooked, bought politicians.

Now Mr. 7:50, prove to me he isn't.
LOL!!!!! Happy Holidays, since you don't like me saying Merry Christmas Mr. Mayor.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 24, 2005 9:08:00 PM
Merry Christmas, Lollypop! How about you proving that you're anything more than a publicity seeker? What would you think if people on this blog started making crude allegations about unproven criminal activities about YOU? That just would not be fair, would it? You'd be screaming FOUL so loud it would be heard all the way up to the Mother Ship. Maybe we should try a few just for fun. No, we're not that rotten. But your brand of distorted logic allows you to make up whatever comes to your very imaginative mind.

By Anonymous, at Saturday, December 24, 2005 9:46:00 PM
It's really great when someone is so panicked by what you write. Publicity seeker....LOL. I am trying to make it easier to get around the town, safer for the children that play in front of my home, making the investment we have all made stand up over time. You call me allegations crude.....it's your right. However, I haven't heard you answer back with any substance. You as all who's only defense is to attack the messenger. You have no defense or a leg to stand on and you know it. Let's see, you will come back and make some more name calling....like a 5 year old, you will make some more attacks on me because you fear that others will hear our logic and then you will say how boring and stupid this site is and you will take your ball and go home. So all I can logically figure is that you are either a 5 year old on your Dad's computer or you are the arrogant, self-serving Mayor or the other Councilman or the RECALLED FORMER politician. I think you should go open up more presents and let the grown ups talk about how we can save our community.

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 25, 2005 12:28:00 PM
Again, I forgot to sign my name. The shame of a 5 year old calling me a lollypop is just so intense. One day I will take you down memory lane and we can talk about some fears I have faced so you can live free and speak your mind, although you don't speak very adult like.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 25, 2005 12:31:00 PM
ME,
It is easy to see who is making these posts. Nowagain I'll use my logic. What normal resident spends Christmas Eve attacking another resident for his views......except one of Councilmen being questioned. When you look at the way the posts are written and the arrogance contained and the fact that there are no direct answers to differ from my opinion, none other then our Mayor has returned to this blog. This is vintage Kelly. He wants to belittle me, ask for proof of logic but he has no basic reasoning why I am wrong. Kelly you are just a bully. Thats all you will ever be.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Sunday, December 25, 2005 3:36:00 PM
Jeff,
You are right on the money about Kelly Seyarto. I have worked around him for a couple of years and this is exactly the way he talks about people out of earshot. Pretty good call for a Liberal.

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 7:20:00 AM
Heeeeey, Jeffy Boy... Interesting list of hype you lay out for yourself as public spirited citizen numero uno. But all you've really done is appeal to the people who are just like you. "Let the grown ups talk" you whine. OK, Jeff and his brand of "grown ups", how about giving us kids just a tiny bit of proof when you go blasting smelly accusations out of your facial orifice. Easy to raise a stink when all you've got are stinking words. Proof, who needs it when you can raise the kind of rabble that get their jollies from gossip and character assassination. But wait, you whine, the Seyarto supporters were doing that too. So, you want to follow their bad example? Just proves you're no better. Public spirited Jeff, the sucker for publicity, the do-nothing but talk guy who thinks he's accomplishing something by sticking it to other people with unproven allegations. Is he Mr. Super Citizen as he boasts, or just another jerk?

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 7:58:00 AM
ME. You do raise an important thought about the meeting with the 3 councilmen and LM. Was the meeting a violation of the Brown Act? Even if their meeting was not city business related, the perception thereof is very disturbing and should not be tolerated. However, I doubt their meeting was just a get together of old friends, especially being held in the office of a developer. As stated in the text of the Brown Act, “There is rarely any purpose to a nonpublic pre-meeting conference except to conduct some part of the decisional process behind closed doors.” The perception of unethical behavior is the very reason JvH was recalled. It’s too bad the meeting wasn’t known prior to the recall election, as the outcome could have been very different.

Just Curious

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 8:46:00 AM
To Anon 7:58 AM, your post can be reduced (by eliminating all the blather) to "give us a tiny bit of proof" to support the accusations.

You do not say what accusations, but here are the conclusions that we've come to regarding the need to replace two more council members, Kelly Seyarto and Doug McAllister.

1. These two have been handpicked for the Murrieta City Council by a group of narrow interested developers and lobbyists.

The proof: The $600K raised by Dan Stephenson's Political Action Committee to retain these two councilmen for their favorable votes on developer projects.

2. The same two councilmen were supported by the Murrieta City Chamber of Commerce which is really a front organization for non-Murrieta City businesses which are tied to the same group of developers headed by Dan Stephenson.

The proof: The non-Murrieta character of the Chamber was explained on this blog in this post. During the recall campaign, the Chamber's leaders opposition to the recall reached hysterical levels of opposition.

3. The local arm of the republican party is owned by the Dan Stephenson group of developers and in response to the developer's bidding irresponsibly entered a non-partisan Murrieta City Council recall election.

The proof: First, during the recall campaign, the County republican party signed off on all of the anti-recall literature EVEN though the County leader MR. KEVIN JEFFERIES claimed it was a mistake which he was trying to correct. This is, undoubtedly, untrue.

Now Jeffries is running for the State Assembly and guess who is supporting him? Why none other than Dan Stephenson. This is just another example showing how some businesses and business people misuse their wealth to subvert the democratic ideal which requires that representatives be accountable to the citizens.

The proof: I am presently working on another post which I will submit to Mr. Joe Kunkle in which Dan Stephenson states that Jeffries was responsible for enlisting the County republican party to join the anti-recall group to same van Haaster, Seyarto and McAllister.

So Anon, you want a "tiny bit of proof." You've got it; we followed the money, we've showed the domination of the Murrieta City Council by a narrow group of self-interested developers and non-Murrieta City businesses; and we've shown, and will add further proof, that the County republican leadership "jumps" when the monied interests command them.

Perhaps no more than any other place in California, but the political processes in Riverside County and in Murrieta are corrupted by a shadowy conspiracy between Stephenson's developer and business connections coupled with lifer politicians who will do Stephenson's bidding in order to stay on his donation payroll.

Anon, you don't see it? Then you have no eyes to see and no ears to hear. You are politically blind and deaf.

Stay tuned for the next installment of proof as promised.

Edward Faunce

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 9:28:00 AM
Mr. Ed Faunce,
I have no quarrel with allegations which have substantiation. I know you have the good sense to provide something other than hot air to back up your rhetoric. Jeff, on the other hand, has made numerous and repeated charges that relate mostly to money-tainted corruption. He has made no attempt to define exactly what "on the take" evidence he has, and that is the tip of his ugly accusation-strewn iceburg. I understand why you have to cater to the likes of Jeff, and join them in their goofy sounding chants, but I can see the difference in what you are doing, and that difference is what is worthy of some attention and respect. So, call me blind and deaf or whatever, I still like what you are doing. And I still think Jeff and those who share his style of angry, empty, poison-dart like ramblings are doing much more harm than good.
I am Objective.

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 9:48:00 AM
I am objective,

Well you agree with Ed's Item One? What he is saying is that two Councilmen were paid 600K, in essense to vote in unison FOR support of developers issues. That's being bought! That's being on the take. Their votes were for sale and the proof is every vote since the recall. Ramblings....I love this. Like Ed said, the Republican party is in support and from another post going back a month or so put a sock in your mouth, I mean our Mayor's mouth. I don't need publicity. I'm not getting extra credit here. The only good I get is if traffic settles down, our kids are safe and our community doesn't turn into a slum like others to the North and Northeast. However your posts, being defensive, show that you support the slum lords, so you do have a VESTED interest. There are no arguments supporting the other side.....are there? You haven't said anything, except berate me.....and I love it. Thanks Kelly you made my day again.
So super citizen I am not, just someone concerned that we are getting the shaft. Half this City saw it with Van Haaster and more will come. But thanks for your opinions. I wonder if you are a conservative Republican???? Let me guess....LOL. Let's see who's exact style you follow.....Rush somebody...LOL

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 11:22:00 AM
Yes...it was Jeff again in the above post...who else whines and complains.....but if you want to know I got everything I wanted for Christmas and everything in my life is hunky dory.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 11:25:00 AM
Let's take "I am Objective's" post just above to Ed Faunce. He said "I have no quarrel with allegations which have substantiation. I know you have the good sense to provide something other than hot air to back up your rhetoric." In Ed's Item 1, Ed said "The proof: The $600K raised by Dan Stephenson's Political Action Committee to retain these two councilmen for their favorable votes on developer projects. Is that not what I have been saying...over and over.

So you believe Ed's post, yet want to call me saying the exact same thing...LOONEY? LOL.

Above Just Curiuos and ME support my logic and reasonings.....there is corruption going on here....but I'm LOONEY?

Ed closes with "Perhaps no more than any other place in California, but the political processes in Riverside County and in Murrieta are corrupted by a shadowy conspiracy between Stephenson's developer and business connections coupled with lifer politicians who will do Stephenson's bidding in order to stay on his donation payroll." So, do you read the words....corrupted and conspiracy? I don't see these as positve phrases. I see corruption and conspiracy and I totally believe it. Something is going on here and I want to see where all of our monies are going. Someone's getting what they want and it's not the residents of this city.

City Hall will be looked at over the next few months as now the watchdogs groups have been notified. I went directly to three Councilmen and got the information I sought. This city may have to go through some more pain to get better, but we will get better.

"I am objective"....you are as objective as any ideolouge. You are as objective as the tunnel (vision)is long.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 12:27:00 PM
Jeff go enjoy the holiday festivities. There will be plenty of time to shoot the breeze after the new year. You should save the satire for all the upcoming socializing. Jeff there is also a difference between 600k in legal donations and corruption. What are the details that you could submit to the County DA concerning all of the illegal activities and corruption? See you in 2006.

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 4:05:00 PM
Lollipop, Lollipop, Oh Lolli, Lolli, Lolli... Remember the old song? Hey, Jeff, don't blow your wrapper off. Yeah, whether you like it or not there's a big difference between receiving a campaign donation and being on the take. What you're doing is preaching hoopla to the existing flock, and convincing noone else. Does no good other than to scratch your own irritated itch. Similar to the accusations and comparisons you make when you equate 9/11 hijackers with people who sell booze. Both bad, but no cigar. Not even close. Your blogs are self gratifying bravado, and do nothing but harm to any cause you espouse. If I wanted to win a contest, I'd do everything possible to get you alligned with my opponent. Maybe that's what's going on. You're working for Seyarto, aren't you?

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 6:08:00 PM
Well Mr 6:08 you are really coming from left field because it is you that are wrong. Jeff has a following for his posts on Murrieta. We talk about this blog and what it means to all of us. We don't want this town to be a Hemet or Lake Elsinore. We agree with Murrietaeyes and Just Curious also and a number of others. I also agree you are one of them. If not KS then JVH. Your theory about Jeff being aligned with KS is just so far off. Have you gone back and read the name calling when KS and Jeff entertained us?

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 6:59:00 PM
Mr. 6:49, I could not have made my own arguement better than you have made it. Thankyou. Jeff's "following" constitutes 100 percent of those influenced by Jeff. That's called, among other things, "preaching to the choir". He is antagonistic to anyone who even winces slightly as he attempts to decapitate his foes with the very dull blade of his emotional accusations. Try this: Take just an itsy bitsy issue with one of his diatribes. For example, his very serious and definite equating of 9/11 terrorists with makers of booze or cigarettes. Then watch him come unglued as he lines you up with Seyarto and company to take a pelting with his wordy slingshot. Is that someone you actually "follow"? Man, that's just sad. If someone is going to take issue with the powerful interests supporting Seyarto and friends in the upcoming election, they are going to have to be a whole lot different than silly boy Jeff. Otherwise, van Haster will be able to laugh his way back into office.

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 7:36:00 PM
How about Kassen Klein as the anonymous poster? He is another who acts arrogant and condescending. Ever seen his antics at the council or planning commission meetings? Take a good look and watch!!! It is rather disgusting and immature.

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 8:47:00 PM
That of course is the plan. JVH back in office. Seyarto staying. Those three in against a worn out Enochs and possibly Gibbs. That is going to be the purpose of the VanHaaster agenda.

7:36, you have the right to your opinions, but I hear absolutely no substance. I hear nothing but belittling. Why are all conservatives like that. They think that the direction everyone must go is down the path of name calling, belittling. Talk about it getting old.

Why is it too, that I predicted every action that you do? Because you are a duplicate of your agenda. Nothing more. Pretty much worthless. I have point by point laid out how I feel, but you have said absolutely nothing. Nothing. So here is what you do? Go call Stephenson and ask him what you should say next, and what name you should call next. Because your comments are totally childish. Will you end up a hero to yourself and your children by calling others names for their beliefs?

I have proved myself, what have you proved.....that you have to progressed being a 5 year old bully. Well, I can go toe to toe FOREVER. I would love to stoop to your level, but won't.

The choir needs to be preached to, we let Seyarto and McAlister get away. Sir, remember I fought for your right to speak and encourage you to do it. But I haven't heard an opinion just disrespect. The only opinion I have heard from you is of me. I am nothing in this. The opinions of all are needed to educate us. Your opinion is non-existent, except to act like a child. Bring on your opinion. Or should I just turn on Bill O'Reilly, because you act the same. Anyone with a differing opinion then yours should just shut up right?
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Monday, December 26, 2005 9:13:00 PM
ME – In summary, and simply said, it all boils down to “special interest” groups. To Anon 6:08, in summary and simply said, it all boils down to what side of the coin you view and it’s easy to see that your view is mostly of the tail side of the coin.

Just Curious

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 6:53:00 AM
Wow, the Jef F troop is out in force! They don't want Lieutenant LOLlipop to take a licking. OK, I surrender. You can unload your weapons, and bandage up all those friendly fire wounds to your own feet. I'm behind Jeff now, and I have a plan. These tobacco and booze purveyors who Jeff says are just as bad as the 9/11 hijackers... We can do something about this evil stuff right here in Murrieta. I think all of us would have risked our own lives if we knew we could have kept those 9/11 guys from getting on the planes. Well, I have seen with my own observant eyeballs something you won't believe. Tobacco and booze trucks dropping their tools of terror right here in Murrieta at local convenience stores! I say let's corner the drivers and tell them we know how evil they are, and we want them to talk. If they don't, we can force them to drink beer and smoke cigarettes until they do. This may be a breach of the recent ban on torture law, but if it keeps tobacco and beer from reaching our local 7-11's it is worth it. Holy cow! I never thought about it before. 7-11 and 9/11 sound too much alike to be a coincidence. There's a conspiracy or code words or something going on here. Let's ask Lieutenant LOLlipop for his take on it. Every one in Jef F troop needs to be brought up to snuff.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 7:03:00 AM
Jeff,
I don't agree with how strong someone's point is being made. But I can see one good point. I am a person, and there are many others, who as conservatives voted against Mr. vanHaaster. In the recall election many conservatives joined with many Democrats and Libertarians, in opposition to the Republican Party call, to vote against the mayor. Remember, this was a more painful process for those conservatives (including many registered Republicans) than for someone who was not made to feel they were going against their own. These are good people. But I can guarantee you that if someone like yourself had been constantly villifying them during the recall campaign, it would not have helped them in making that difficult decision. The same will be true this year. Republicans and conservatives, who form the majority of voters in Murrieta, will have to again vote for what they think is best for this community. The more Republicans and conservatives there are who come on board, the better. But getting those people on board is not helped when you make blanket and offensive (yes, very offensive) statements about their party and their values.
You can pick my words apart all day long in defense of what you do, but I can guarantee you 100% that you are doing more harm than good to the cause of keeping Murrieta out of the hands of a few politicians we'd all like to see gone. If you had been heavily involved before the recall election, the party-related animosity you create could have had the result of keeping Mr. vanHaaster in office. Yes, it does create that much of a bad impression, and anyone can throw a monkey wrench into an otherwise good cause. History is full of changes that were made by lone individuals taking potshots at good people. Lee Harvey Oswald is an example of a nobody who did major damage. And that is what you are doing when you take shots at an entire class of people. If Mr. vanHaaster gets back in office, you may want to examine your own methods.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 7:41:00 AM
7:03 (formerly 6:08 ?) No, not even close when you suggest that I am member of the Jef F troop. I agree with you that Jeff’s analysis and comparison of 911 with tobacco and alcohol producers is something to be desired. And as far the LOLlipop talk, I often read past any post that contains the language, as it’s all childish talk and I’m not interested in reading it. It even seems your latest post has sucked you into the F troop talk. I will say I am a member of a special interest group (SIG), one that only desires to see Murrieta grow equally across the board, both in private development and infrastructure. That SIG, and the head side of the coin, would be as a resident of Murrieta joining together with other residents who only want the same. So what SIG are you a member of?

Just Curious

PS – it would be much easier to address your posts if you would include some sort of name. The same goes for all other Anons.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 7:52:00 AM
7:49 and 7:52 are the two best posts that have come along in quite a while. From the times of those posts, they must have been written simultaneously. Something good was in the air! That was a good moment for Murrieta, and with hope for the coming year I give an early New Year's toast to the writers.
Just an Anon

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 8:26:00 AM
I am so sorry. I had read 7:52 and 7:41. After looking at the sequence again, I see that 7:49 was just another depressing blog attack. I'll have to recall my early New Year's toast.
Just an Anon

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 8:31:00 AM
MurrietanEyez, You're splitting hairs. Jeff definitely compared the 9/11 terrorists to those who make money off of tobacco and alcohol. No need to try to defend the indefensible.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 8:44:00 AM
ME, isn't it interesting that you see yourself in a position to pass out "grades" on the blog, as though you were hired to critique and judge other people? I find your arrogance amazing!
It does not surprise me that you abd Jeff did bring tobacco and alcohol into the equasion in regards to wiretapping. Perhaps it has escaped you, that people voluntarily and knowingly ignore the warnings and risks and make their own choices in regards to smoking and drinking and usually do not kill anyone else!
I am grateful for the wiretapping, it is helping to keep our citizens safe from terrorist attacks, regardless if they choose to drink or smoke!

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 8:56:00 AM
ME every email and electronic correspondence has been routed through an NSA super computer for over a decade now. We are all in essence being electronically wiretapped. I heard no whining or screaming when it was discovered that Clinton started this program. Past Presidents have also been wire tapping foreign enemies on our soil for decades. It is clear that the NYT released the info on this program now in order to try to politically damage Bush. Unfortunately it boomeranged back in their direction and as far as I am concerned those involved in the information's release should be tried and hung for treason. ME it was also a weak arguement to link what Cunningham did compared to normal campaign contributions. Cunningham accepted money and items for personal gain. There is a clear line between campaign budgeting and personal budgeting. If any campaign money is used to purchase personal items for home use that constitutes a funding abuse and the person that does it should be in jail. Cunningham's behavior was despicable and I hope the guy spends the maximum time in jail.

I do not know who that anon was that glossed the RMer's as the "F Troop" but that is a perfect description for them. Brilliant job anon.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 9:25:00 AM
Food for Though – Jefferies’ bid for Assembly. Why is it KS and JvH are not listed as members of “The Jefferies Team”? Could it be their list of members (www.kevinjefferies.com) is truly as they say “only partial”? Could it be that neither support Jefferies? Could it be that neither are desirable to the local Republican Party, as one is an ousted Mayor and the other berated the Party on this very blog? Or could it be that they are supporters, however intentionally omitted from list as not to lose Republican voters because of their support? It comes as no surprise that the likes of Dan Stephenson and a few of his Chamber Board are on The Jefferies Team. If one would looked closely, I’m sure the developers are in there somewhere.

Just Curious

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 11:51:00 AM
Where in the F troop posting does it mention RMer's? This is just another example of what happens on this blog with someone twisting what another has said. And no, before you run off and make another assumption or twist, this is not a defensive RMer.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 12:36:00 PM
It never mentioned Rmer.It was infered because it is known what group of people are answering the anon's posts. It is not a twist or an assumption. I just thought that F Troop was a better fit than the term oddballs that I used. Either you are an RMer yourself or you have not read enough posts to know where the majority of posts on here come from.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 2:18:00 PM
Roy,
I am not an RMer as I have never met any of them so how does your comment connect me with them? Would it be fair since you are a conservative to assume you are a liar and crook? You are of the same opinion as the politicians that serve your ideology. Why do you think your any better then the RMers? They had the guts and fortitude to accomplish something against the odds. I think they should be thanked by this community.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 4:38:00 PM
Roy, If you want to discuss the ethics of our President and defend his attack on our civil liberties lets move to the National Politics string. This is going to be so much fun.......Your post is directly from Sean Hannity and his talking points.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 4:43:00 PM
7:41,
I agree with you totally and please take with a grain of salt some of the things I say. I agree that most Republicans are not the far right segment of the ideology. Most are reasonable and logical and I have no problem with them. Who am I to judge. All I have is an opinion and we all have one.

I respect any person that can stand and talk and look at points and opinions with an open mind and a reasonable attitude. It is the neo-con and the far left that don't use any reason in judgments. As a parent could watch a child murder someone and completely deny and overlook the transgression, blaming it on someone else, that is the reasoning of the tunnel visioned ideolouge. I am truly neither, but find that it is the neo-con attacking me with verbally abusive name calling and in defense I call a spade a spade. Everything I say they will do, they do. It's as if a script has been written and they MUST follow it or be disfellowshiped from the ideology.

Again my defense is not an attack on ALL conservatives nor on all Republicans. I voted for Bush, I voted for Arnold. All I have asked in my posts is for the conservative world to tell me all the wonderful things that the current administration has done in the last 5 years. The improvements to my life. Thats when the personal attacks start, because they have no real answers. There reaction, the same as we see daily on the news, is to attack the person questioning as being crazy, unpatriotic, ungodly and a traitor. The person questioning sits back and laughs, because it is continually the same with each person. Well theres also the Bill Clinton response on everything. Its almost sick, that they have to revert to six years ago to defend today. Anyways, if you are an open minded, non-name calling person, you are a friend to this community as those are the only people that can open their eyes to our future,
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 4:56:00 PM
Jeff,
We think it is becoming apparant to everyone that it is in the best interests of our whole community if we all stop bad mouthing each others political parties and ideologies. As long as we can keep our focus on the political problem we all have in common in this town, we might be able to accomplish something meaningful. If we lose sight of that goal, we may lose everything that was accomplished in the recall election.
Been There

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:00:00 PM
To the unreasonable, child that posts on here concerning the 9-11 statement.

My point, and thanks MurrietaEyes for getting the point, is that we are being frightened, the use of fear is the conservative tactic, into thinking that we are being blitzed by terrorists trying to committ a second 9-11 by the White House. 9-11 was a terrifying and horrific event. They have taken the fear of a repeat episode and run a campaign around it.

Be afraid!!! They are coming here if we don't fight them there!!! And someone will probably come again, but the chance they will have WMD in a backpack is not likely. But the White House should be focussed on real risks to our personal lives. The Corporations that promote alcohol and tobacco should be looked at as a real threat to our lives. Drunk drivers and second hand smoke kill thousands and thousands more as well as the diseases that kill 500 times more. This White House instead should be attacking and issuing as it's highest priority a war on drugs. But it knows where the fear is today and it's centered on terrorists. So reasonably thinking, what should most Americans be fearing.....a drunk driver smacking them and killing their family or a terrorist blowing up a building? To put it more logically, how many terrorist attacks are invading our country on a daily basis and how many accidents take lives on our roads caused by drunk drivers?
So why are we OK giving up our civil liberties because we fear a terrorist attack?

Because the White House wants us to fear an attack. To me it would be more reasonable if they stood outside of bars and taverns with a breathalizer (sp), then to wiretap our calls and e-mails for a fear that terrorists are crossing our open borders because even though the borders are unprotected attacks are basically non-existent.

Who, if they had the choice would not accept the death of 3000, no matter how horrific, if we could completely eliminate the deaths caused by drugs and alcohol?

Aren't we accepting 2200 deaths in Iraq as the cost of doing business so we can give Iraq a Theocratic government? Now just think reasonably and you will see the logic.

Some of you will say...what a terrible man to accept the deaths of 9-11. I'm not!!!

What I think is we cannot give up the 4th amendment because of the fear it will happen again. There are bigger issues as mentioned to worry about. But, that doesn't fit the White House agenda, the acceptance of this war. Without fear, they have absolutely nothing.
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:19:00 PM
Been there,

You again are right. We have a National Politics string above. Thats where further posts like this should go. However, I felt the need to defend my thinking. I will not speak on this string about National politics. But watch that child get back on here and attack....thats the misdirection they want. Watch if I'm not right!
Jeff

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:25:00 PM
Hi Jeff,
I think your prediction will prove true, many times over. But I think most blog participants have our common good in mind, and I think we can overcome the distractions which will be thrown our way by anyone who might try to profit by distracting and dividing us. Regardless of our parties or ideologies we in have a purpose in common. It's nothing less than to achieve the very best for our children, our neighborhoods, our traffic flow, our property values, and our quality of life. On this we can all agree. Together I believe we can successfully work toward that end.
Been There

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 6:02:00 PM
Jeff if you want to debate the loss of civil liberties...great. I will do so if you can first find someone,or a group, that have been denied their civil liberties. I do not want to talk hypotheticals. Give me a real case please.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, December 27, 2005 6:15:00 PM
Amen Been There !! Keep everyone on the straight and narrow as to why we are all here on this string. Whether we agree or choose to disagree, we do all have a common goal, that is one to help Murrieta be a great place to live.

Anon 12:36, not a liar but someone that has read almost every post.

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By Unknown, at Monday, April 14, 2008 4:11:00 AM

MURRIETA OPEN FORUM - Get it said, get it read, communications for the community.

Thursday, December 01, 2005

The Murrieta Chamber of Commerce, a “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

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