MURRIETA OPEN FORUM - Get it said, get it read, communications for the community.

Sunday, November 13, 2005

The Great American Debate

Scanning through the plethora of posts by RHolmgren and Jeff, I have realized that both of their fundamental positions, being very similar to fundamentalist positions elsewhere on the globe, have every appearance of being irreconcilable. However, having read through these sometimes heated exchanges, certain common threads have emerged that I won't mention in this post.

That said, what I have seen in these exchanges, sometimes abusive, sometimes profound, are two very different viewpoints regarding the same set of criterion, i.e., who is responsible for the apparently sorry state of the U.S., the liberals, or the conservatives, the democratic party philosophy, or the republican?

I believe this question to be important, and I would like to see a debate between these two titans of polarity.

I feel such a debate could possibly do two things:

1. It could define the fundamental differences between the conservative thought process and the liberal thought process. (Is it different than the media representation, or as has been indicated elsewhere on this blog, are these polarized positions an actual result of social engineering by the media?)

2. Through focused debate, these two polar opposites might come to realize certain common grounds and hence to open up a meaningful dialog, devoid of personal attacks and sound-bite rhetoric?

I invite these two contestants to pull out all the stops, and tackle this issue head on. I, for one, am very interested in the outcome, whatever it may be.

38 Comments:

  • Kudos to JL Kunkle for encouraging the Jeff/Rholmgren debate. The exchanges of these two strong personalities is the #1 reason I tune in.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, November 13, 2005 6:19:00 PM  

  • JL Kunkle.
    First off, I have to respond by saying that I have no problem debating my ideals with anyone. However, on a personal note, I don't feel comfortable debating with someone as disrespectful as Rholmgren. He has called me names such as a traitor and a coward, always attempting to back me down through fear tactics or the belittling of my position with my company and my military record. None on here would accept a person to challange parts of their personal lives. I have warned him many times but the straw that broke the camels back was him attacking a woman verbally in one of his posts. We on here, save Councilman Seyarto are not politicians and all go to work and have families and to be verbally abused with name calling is not appropriate at any time. If I worked for Rholmgren as a politician he could second guess or logically state his opinion of the things I do but that is not the case here. I have challanged Councilmen Seyarto's performance, alluded to what I feel are unethical dealings, however, many times have praised his secular work record and his family as I have no knowledge of his background. It's the job he has done for me and this community I have been highly critical of. Just as I would someone who had not done the job required working in my profession. Sarcasum is also a path I have gone down but I have done it as examples of the persons statements and their reasoning in their posts. So, Mr. Kunkle, if someone that can respectfully challange my logic and reasoning would like to debate my ideals, I would love the challange.
    Secondly, although many of my posts support liberal agendas, not all of my ideals are supported within that ideology. I am a backer of stopping the crossing of our border by illegal aliens. I am for the death penalty in many cases but not all. I support our military 150% up to the appointed or elected heads in Washington. I support fiscal conservatism to some degree. But, I side with human rights and the rights of all creatures that God has given us to protect. I side with the protection of this planet. I side with the voice of the citizens of this country and the residents of Murrieta to have a voice in everything that occurs here beyond just a vote. I side with a woman's right to choose in most cases, although the last proposition should have passed as we were talking about under age children. I support the right for all men and women to love one another and have equal rights whether they are gay and lesbian or not. I support the right of every race and creed to be treated equally no matter what their economic standing is. I respect and support the rights of women in every matter. So am I a Democrat.....not really as I am not a liberal. Am I a Republican....not todays far right conservative. But I am an independant thinker, with my own ideology. This ideology is not dictated from talk radio or todays news editorialists. I get my information from many sources and try to absorb it outside of an established ideology. I think that people in position of authority and trust should be held to the highest standard and when they misuse this trust, they should be immediately removed. No second chances, as if they do it once they are likely to have done it before and gotten away with it and will try and do it again. Ethics and respect are my highest qualifier for the people who I pay and trust with setting the laws and rules for my country and community. I try to open up that communication by alerting people to these people through my posts, so they to can take the time to research the issues at hand. I alone cannot get them out of office, it takes the people as a whole to make that move.

    So if someone wants to debate my ideals, I am fine with that. But to call me a traitor for the above ideals, they have no sense of respect for my feelings or respect for me the man. To call me a coward after I served 4 years in the mountains and rice paddy's of vietnam, won two purple hearts, for my disgust over a war that I saw to be an unjust war in which we were fighting for an ideology is something I will not tolerate. Rholmgren has not fought for this country. He can talk to every military man returning and he will still never understand the sense of fear and honor that they have endured. He has attacked me and because he has not served, has no right to attack my service or my ideals gained from that service by calling me a coward.

    Hope that answered why I will not debate him. Any others that want to debate my ideals I call them to step foward and be part of this great blog site and join in discussing our coummunity and great nation.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, November 14, 2005 6:46:00 AM  

  • It is true that Rholmgren has gone way outside the bounds of normal respectable and decent conduct. I would not want to be a politician or anyone else who was supported by someone whose character is displayed in such an ugly manner. The question is, who else is there to speak on behalf of Seyarto, McAllister, and Van Haster? I am serious about this. It is important that someone out there be willing and able to put forth some kind of intelligent discussion of the issues from that perspective. They surely don't have to rely only on the alternatives of someone like Rholmgren or flashy ads from developer's slush funds at election time. This forum is read by quite a few people in Murrieta. If anyone out there has any kind of intelligent substance to add to the political discussion in this town from the KS, Mac, and VH perspective, please jump in to the conversation.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, November 14, 2005 4:26:00 PM  

  • 4:26,
    I agree with you. People who support any of the current and former Councilmen that you mention should come on and state their opinions. They have a right to be heard and brought into every discussion. They should have their right to answer questions that many of us have asked about the future of Murrieta and where we can go as a City. Without everyone we fall into the hands of the people that prey on complacent people.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, November 14, 2005 5:16:00 PM  

  • Jeff,
    This is 4:26 again. From people I talk to in Murrieta I can tell two things. First, there's some apathy between big events in town. Elections and controversial projects make people pay attention, but for most people attention drifts away between events. Second, there's been a sea change in people's attitudes in town. Most of those I know who supported Van Haster have been surprised to see that things are running better now. Even KS has mellowed out. I guess Van Haster was even more divisive than any of us thought. So, it might be harder to find people who are willing to argue for the previous trio's ideas, because there are fewer people in that frame of mind. The only thing that could upset the apple cart now would probably be a big expensive propaganda campaign by outsiders, and maybe by a couple people in this town who see advantage in doing what those outsiders want done. We'll just have to wait and see. In the meantime, I think it's kind of nice that things have mellowed out in this town.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, November 14, 2005 6:51:00 PM  

  • 4:26,
    KS may have mellowed because he isn't talking to reporters and he isn't coming on here and making some pretty outrageous comments. The quieter he is now the more fear of whats going on i have. But he and McAlister stirred things up with their proposal to charge Councilmen filing appeals. I will lead the charge to stop that. Glad your making comments, whether we are on the same side of issues or not.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, November 14, 2005 7:53:00 PM  

  • I was watching Meet the Press yesterday and Mr. DNC Howard Dean was on. He was asked what Democratic party's detailed alterntive agenda was. Mr Dean's answer: We have a plan and we can do better than the present leadership. As for details: Mr. Dean said wait for the details to come in 2006. I was floored! I remember Kerry saying the same thing in 2003. "We can do better." "We have a plan."As for details: "Trust us" Alright. So in a three year span the Democrats have failed to articulate their agenda. The Democratic frontruner could not do it in 2003 and the head of the DNC cannot do it today. WHY? Are they afraid that if their true agenda was revealesd that the electorate might turn on them? How can 3 years pass without the Democrats figuring out what there agenda is? Were they too busy being just anti Bush and anti Republican? One thing I know for sure is that I could only support an organization or a political party that has a plan and a agenda. I want to support a party of ideas and innovation. I want to support a party that rewards the hard work and responsible behavior of its citizens. My party needs to support employers large and small to promote economic growth.My party needs to support the concept of deregulation and the streamling of tax law. My party needs to be at the forefront of placing women and minorities in positions of power instead of paying lip service to it as the Democrats do. And the party that represents none of this has a Donkey for a symbol. If you want to see why the Democrats have yet to figure out what their detailed agenda is then I recommend that everyone visit Moveon.org and M Moorer's web site. I also recommend that you listen to KFBK 90.7 for a few weeks. Read and listen to the agenda of the left. Their leadership at the DNC are afraid to articulate it but their supporters are very vocal as to what the left's platform is. I wish that there was enough space here to detail it.
    To me Jeff is a poster child of what the left is. The left will deny ideology or declare that they are independent or progressive or moderate. And then at a flip of the coin start spewing party leftist platform verbatum. Jeff has quoted so many DNC talking points over the last 10 months that he might as well just cut and paste their platforms onto this web site. On a local level Jeff seems to represent the selfish concept of "I have mine now I want support policies that will prevent others from having theirs" He has has consistently blamed developers for most of this communities ills.He does not see the how funding shortfalls from the county and state have failed to keep road construction paced with development. Blaming developers is the normal Jeff one dimensional response. What Jeff should be doing is thanking those that built his past houses and present one. Without the development of the last 6 years Jeff would probably not live here and home prices would probably not have benefitted from all the larger upscale houses that the last 6 years brought. And to this day Jeff's greatest faux paus was trying to convince others that there were no parks close to his house. (Jackson and Nutmeg area) Break out a map. How many parks are there?

    Out of fairness I will point out what I see as the shortcomings of the present Republican leadership. 1)Their domestic spending is out of control. This to me is their biggest weakness and they had better start tightening the fiscal belt in a hurry. 2) They have not been forceful or confrontational enough with the Dems. They should have exercised the nuclear option and ended the Senate filibuster rule on judicial nominees. And Bush needs to more forcefully confront those who voted for the war and quoted the same information that Bush did and now falsely call him a liar and information manipulator solely for political gain. To me this is the same as aiding and abetting the enemy and treachery. Remember the same people that are accusing Bush of being a liar and promote an anti war agenda are the same people that continue to vote for the war's continued funding. Actions speak louder than their untruthful words. 3) Bush has not dealt harsh enough with Syria's and Iran's support of terrorism. If there needs to be a few new fronts opened up in order to defeat murderous terrorist thugs then so be it. This war should not be fought with one hand tied behind our backs. The danger to the Republican leadership is that if they do not deal with these current and upcoming issues then their voting base will probably not show up at the polls in the next few elections. (Republicans usually stay home to show their dissatisfaction with their leadership versus voting for their opponent) One last thing Jeff and I were on the same side in a recent poll that Jeff quoted. Jeff said that 59% of Americans did not like the way the war was going. Yes Jeff I am among the 59%. The war is not being waged fiercely enough.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, November 14, 2005 8:08:00 PM  

  • Murrieta blog site,
    This is my first attempt at writing on this site but I have been a follower for some time. I have read the e-mails of both of these gentlemen and have to side with the more realistic of the two and that is Jeff. I live in the same area of Murrieta but don't know him. He appears at least on here to be someone that challenges the status quo, asks questions and appears to have a good sense of humor if I read the columns right. He is also right about no parks on the northwest side of Jackson and Nutmeg. My 9 and 11 year old boys have to walk about 1/2 a mile across streets that don't have a stop light just stop signs. This makes me very uncomfortable as they are boys and end up taking the fastest ways home along major streets with no sidewalks. Our complex borders Wildomar and they have no baseball fields close. The home builders should have designed this area with a larger park to help the parents in the area keep their children close and without the danger of crossing major streets that have no stop light crossings. When we bought the home almost five years ago the home builder had a large park on the map of the complex but built homes on the area instead.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, November 14, 2005 8:39:00 PM  

  • 8:39 Do you think it would be a good idea to place an initiative on the ballot that would tax each resident around $70 a year and devote the fund to acquiring new parks and maintaining them? There is still room near your development for another park but the window of opportunity will close soon if action is not taken.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, November 14, 2005 9:39:00 PM  

  • There have been numerous sightings of a bobcat in the area around Nutmeg and Jackson. My neighbor has seen it a couple of times and there have been paw prints left around our neighborhood. There are also some missing cats. Keep your pets safe.

    I just want to thank M.E . and Jeff for ostracising me. I guess it is O K when they dish it out but when they are on the recieving end they have to resort to the grade school tactic of ignoring. Good. The only people that they want to "debate " with are those that are in near agreement with them. My views may be in a minority in this blog but they are mainstream views whether anyone of you acknowledge it or not. It also amazes me that only after applying a low heat in this blog's banter that M.E.and Jeff could not take it. I said you were cowardly and so you prove my point with your future dis-response. Thank You.
    Maybe now I should turn the heat up even more?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, November 15, 2005 2:52:00 PM  

  • It is very easy for an individual to hide behind a keyboard and abuse others, speak for them and tell people how they think. Rholgren you are probably the biggest coward that has appeared on this blog. I have watched, and hated some of the things Jeff has said, because I am a far right conservative. He is everything I hate on that side of politics. In ways his thoughts differ from mine night and day. But I am also a Vietnam brother, 1st CAV and when it comes to my military family and the defense of it over a loud, foul mouth coward like you, Jeff wins everytime. You are the abuser and if I read into everything you say the abuse is not confined to people that you are not face to face in a blog with but to the weaker ones around you in real life. If it's heat that you want come over to this side of the blog and call my military brother a coward. Do you think for a moment anyone on here is afraid of posting on here because of your lame ass? You're a nobody. It won't be just behind this keyboard that your butt will be burning. He's right when he said he paid the price to speak his mind. You couldn't carry this man's shoes.

    It's not your views that are in the minority it's your moral values and the respect you have for other people that are at the bottom of the barrell. How old are you? 6?
    1stCAVBILL

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, November 15, 2005 5:35:00 PM  

  • 1stCAVBILL most of my life is spent in the real world face to face with people and not behind a keyboard. I spend maybe an hour a day on one. You can call me a coward if you want but I GUARANTEE YOU THAT YOU WOULD NOT GET AWAY WITH CALLING ME ONE TO MY FACE. Anyway I always told Jeff that he was brave when he served back in Vietnam and I am sure you were too.I never ever made any negative comment in regards to his service. What I cannot stand is when he or anyone says things that encourage the current enemy. To me if you are saying anything that encourages and emboldens the enemy and boosts their position then you are endangering the lives of the servicemen who are overseas NOW and that includes members of my family and my friends. Anyone with Jeff's attitude toward the current conflict is a traitor as far as I am concerned even if they were brave to serve long ago. It makes me sick that political games are being played while our troops are in harms way. The enemy would love to divide and conquer us. The more that the Democrats increase the perception of division then the more encouragement the enemy will have. Jeff seems to mimic their positions so I am hard on him. There will be time enough in a few years to debate the war issue but it should wait until our troops are out of harms way.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, November 15, 2005 6:21:00 PM  

  • 1stCAVBILL,
    Thanks for the support and I would love to talk and argue politics with you. Although I think you hit the nail perfectly on the head with what an abuser is.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, November 15, 2005 7:10:00 PM  

  • Today the Republican led Senate called on President George W. Bush to explain his strategy for ending the war in Iraq and report every three months on progress until all U.S. troops stationed there are redeployed. Seems the war is going so well that ALL our politicians want us out as quickly as possible. Doesn't seem like the plans are in place to attack Syria or Iran, unless some of our fanatical residents decide to lead the way.
    Republicans have all of a sudden forgotten that this is the war on Terrorism and want a plan out before next November's elections. It's funny how elections and public opinion can change the direction of an ideology isn't it. But polls don't mean anything. The war in Iraq is a mainstream agenda...right??? Maybe we have killed all the terrorists now in Iraq. Maybe we don't have to really worry about fighting them over there to keep them from getting 1st class airline tickets and flying here. Has Halliburton made enough money for Dick Cheney? Stay tuned.

    So the really big question is, has the US Senate decided to turn it's back on our troops by asking for quarterly reports and a plan for removing the troops by the end of 2006? Boy, wouldn't they be traitors if they start backing away from the policies of the Bush White House going into an election year?

    Those cowardly Senate traitors!!!!How dare they disappoint the masses that want to attack Syria and Iran too. Damn, I'm so disappointed. I just starting to love this war. I get so excited thinking that America might be able to make Iraq into a Democratic 51st state. I was planning on getting all their oil. I love the fact that we get to kill Islamic Men, and if we are lucky some of the woman and children get in the way. Wouldn't it be orgasmic if Sean Penn and Michael Moore got in the way too. The price of doing business is the loss of a couple of thousand soliders and 15-20,000 disabled, so what, that's why I put that ribbon on my SUV. But what the heck, I even got to watch embedded Fox News reporters film as we drop white phospheros on the cities. We got to torture some of them, that's such a thrill, especially the dog collar stuff. Now we have to send them off to the Ukraine to torture them. Damn thats fun. I feel so much better that we are getting revenge on some Islamic people for 9-11. But you know it's still not enough. Can't we bomb Syria, just for a little while? Or could we plant some WMD's, then bomb the heck out of someone? Maybe it doesn't have to end here. Do you think if we lie to the American public we can sneak W in for a third term? Just, I don't know, call him Jeb?
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, November 15, 2005 7:42:00 PM  

  • You guys are a hoot! If I am an abuser then the world is doomed!! Ha Ha Ha Ha

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, November 15, 2005 8:01:00 PM  

  • Something that's very important to the residents of Murrieta has to be the price of gas as most of us have a commute everyday to work.

    Well, Oil executives met last week in Washington to discuss oil profits. During this meeting in Congress, the Conservative Republican Chairmen asked that these executives not be sworn in. The rest of the panel was appauled yet these oilmen didn't get sworn in to tell the truth. When asked if they participated in VP Cheney's energy task force in 2001, they all were asked and each one individually said "NO". Well, the Washington Post was given access to the CIA log books and found that each member HAD attended and have a memo stating that these Oilmen helped set the agenda for our country's energy policy. So let's compare......before the policy gas was $1.20. Today it's settled at 2.60 but been as high as $3.15. Also made known in these memos were this state had a Shell refinery that produced 2% of the gas for California. Shell said they couldn't keep this refinery open and were going to close it because they couldn't find a buyer for 6 months prior. Well, come to find out, our Lt. Governor of CA found a buyer in two days and this refinery is still producing fuel. The oil companies way of reducing fuel to raise prices.

    Just another way that this conservative administration has fooled the public with fear tactics, fake secruity alerts (have you ever wondered why we had three alerts prior to last years election and none in the next 12 months!!!!!!), fake WMD's. Cheney and Bush are married to Oil and Haliburton. Lucky us....we end up as not even the bridesmaid, but the people who fund their wedding and reception.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, November 16, 2005 7:29:00 PM  

  • Another great comment on the White House and others in this country attacking people that challange it's policies. This statement from today is a quote from Republican Senator Chuck Hagel.

    Hagel, a Vietnam War veteran and a potential presidential candidate in 2008, countered the White House in a speech to the Council of Foreign Relations that the Vietnam War "was a national tragedy partly because members of Congress failed their country, remained silent and lacked the courage to challenge the administrations in power until it was too late."

    "To question your government is not unpatriotic -- to not question your government is unpatriotic," Hagel said, arguing that 58,000 troops died in Vietnam because of silence by political leaders. "America owes its men and women in uniform a policy worthy of their sacrifices."

    This in response to the Bush White House. This is a conservative talking.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, November 16, 2005 7:47:00 PM  

  • Jeff the oil companies made roughly 9 cents profit for every dollar of revenue. Coca Cola, McDonalds, and Microsoft make way more per dollar. The difference is that the oil companies generate way more dollars of revenue than anyone else. What is wrong with a windfall profit anyway? Do you really run a company? You of all people should know the boom and bust cycles of businness. I have had years when I just broke even and I have had years where I have made a killing.(My windfall profit) I did not hear anyone crying the blues for oil companies when oil was in the 10-12 range and oil profits were barely covering overhead. At least now they have the CAPITAL to reinvest back into their companies. Hopefuly some regulations can be cut so that it makes investment in refineries possible. Also how would a windfall profits tax lower the price of oil? I want someone to explain how adding costs to a business actually lowers costs. Now with hind sight, and with the price of gas falling, again we can see that natural disasters have huge impcts on commodities prices.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 9:16:00 AM  

  • Jeff Hagel is right. It is not unpatriotic to question your government....honestly. The Dems are using outright lies, half truths and fabricated conspiracy theories while at the same time denying their own past support of the President's policies. Here are a few quotes from today's anti-war liars:
    "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." Al Gore Sept 2002

    "The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass detruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last four years... he has continued to build those weapons."
    Sen. John Kerry Oct 2002

    "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years."
    Sen Jay Rockefeller Oct 2002

    " I consider the propect of a nuclear- armed Saddam Hussein who can threaten not only his neighbors, but the stability of the region and the world, a very serious threat to the United States." Sen Hillary Clinton Jan 2003


    These same people today are calling out Bush today as if they never uttered these statements. Their only purpose is to try to historically revise the past in order to benefit themselves politically in the future. They are not only power hungry and self absorbed, but they are also acting treacherously in regards to the safety of troops that are currently deployed abroad. The Dems also act like WMD's were the only reason Saddam was taken out. It was one of many. And why doesn't the mainstream press report how we did find almost 2 tons of enriched uranium in Iraq afer the war? This may seem like alot but the scariest part is that Iraq had almost 500 DOCUMENTED tons of the stuff before the war. What happened to the rest? It scares the hell out of me to think where it may be now. Jeff if you want to be a patriot speak with intellectual honesty with your anti war arguments. Concede the truth even when it hurts your position. Otherwise you are spreading the same unpatriotic lying trash as the Dems.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:03:00 AM  

  • Rholmgren, you're right and that's my point exactly. A pox on both the Dems and Repubs. Neither party competently represents the American people. All pols have way too much power and money. They don't have to struggle daily. They have voted themselves into an insulated bubble and they are financed by a huge industrial/military (corporate/politician) complex.

    That's why I take issue with you over your constant theme of the real right wingers are winning over the dems (or should be.)

    The focus can easily be wrong when you promote a political party. It's like standing on the sidelines and cheering at a football game.

    I've said it before, the winner-take-all mentality of our political system has birthed a completely dysfunctional political dialog. It's always focused on why my party is right and your's is wrong.

    But our overall well being depends on more than just pronouncing a winner. What would this country be if our representatives didn't spend their lives engaged in such silly "you did it" - "no I didn't" - "yes, you did."

    Our current system is so adolescent. Americans need to come to grips with the fact that our institutions must be reformed to make Gov't responsible to the entire citizenry and not just the current politically popular base.

    Let's hold the entire Gov't responsible for the present debacle, Dems, Repubs and bureacrats.

    But in the end, people always get the government they deserve. So we must also look at ourselves and ask why do we continue to support a system that has bankrupted our country, failed to protect our basic interests of environment, education, health-care and our National borders?

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:00:00 AM  

  • Mr. Faunce on this issue I have definitely taken an us vs them approach. But as you well know from previous posts that I do have differences with Republican platforms on social issues. Also at one time you even pointed out my Libertarian tendencies. I appreciate your thoughful observations; especially when it comes to the winner take all portion of our system. I wonder if a Parlimentary system would work here?
    It looks like the issues with Alexander Properties will come to a head on Dec 6. I got the impression from the Council meeting that this whole thing is treading new legal ground. Are there other instances where a developer has sued a city which in turn tied the hands of council member(s) in regards to conflict of interest? If AP does prevail will it lead to similar strategies statewide? The city really is walking a tightrope.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 2:33:00 PM  

  • Rholmgren, I think the Alexander Communities (AC) case is causing concern in a lot of places besides Murrieta.

    If we were to sum up what's happened, in more or less ordinary language, we would say something like:

    A developer voluntarily made contributions to a recall campaign and then, when they lost, they sued the opposing council members, individually, claiming that they were prejudiced and voted their prejudice.

    But the unanswered questions are:

    "Mr. AC didn't you know when you voluntarily got into the political ring that you might lose?"

    "Mr. AC are not City Council members suppose to vote on developer projects according to community standards and, if so, why do you assume that negative votes to your project are based on prejudice while positive votes are acceptable?"

    The scary result, if AC gets what it has requested, is that developers will be able to threaten individual council members with personal liability and remove such elected officials from considering their projects. This would leave City residents essentially unrepresented.

    This result should be unacceptable to all local governments whether City or County. Don't be surprised if the California League of Citys or an equivalent association of Countys seeks to be heard in opposition to AC's arguments.

    On the other question, a winner-take-all vs Parlimentary system raises the inquiry: What are the relative strengths and weakness of the Parlimentary system? And, if there are weaknesses, are there already identified fixes?

    I don't know political science well enough to comment on the Parlimentary system. But, I do know that our system is not serving us well. Maybe some other Murrietans have a political science background and can shed some light on this issue?

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 4:28:00 PM  

  • Ed,

    You're exactly right in your first of two posts. When people follow an ideology that isn't flexible they end up with a chain around their necks and the ideology anchor drags them and if they are a power in the country, the country down with them. The Iraq war, the conservative Republican part of the party and the Religious political right is that anchor. It doesn't have to be just the conservatives. It's the liberals as well. It takes a real man with logic, passion and the ability to think in any situation that should be leading this country. Instead we have a power today, the conservative Republican who is virtually destroying us. That again, doesn't mean to say that if a liberal Democrat ran the Congress and the White House we wouldn't lean too far the other way.
    It's the point I've been making since I joined this blog. If you walk into any conversation and say going in that I'm a conservative or a liberal you've already bound yourself to a side, even if the side of the argument is dead wrong. Then the lies and the misleading start to make your point.
    What we need are men that stand for doing the right thing in every instance. Even if it takes saying that they are wrong or they made a mistake.
    Today even on this site and in the political world we have people who cannot say I was wrong, they just start tilting in another direction. But before they are even able to do that they attack....the key is they never say they did anything wrong. They just attack. Where have we seen that, besides on this blog. Today...Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and Bush before he got the heck out of here all have called anyone all sorts of names....I've heard unpatriotic and spineless as well as cowards. That's all they have left. Is name calling, a very sad state for this powerful country. Just as I stated in many posts, first it's the name calling, then they will slowly change the language of their rhetoric, until they slide toward moderation, not for the people they have wronged but for the elections upcoming. Thats the key. As we move toward next November and the polls stay at 60-70% against the war, against high gas prices, against social scurity changes and all these other unpopular conservative agendas....the more they will creep to the middle, away from the lies and rhetoric that got them stuck where they were at.
    This war has been a true waste in every sense of the word. Yes, with the information that the White House allowed the politicians outside of the inner circle to see, they did say that Hussian was a threat. But you have to remember, the Democrats too couldn't challange a President that had a 75% approval rating months after 9-11, without killing themselves at the the voting booths. But not one of them pushed the war button. They trusted that everything Bush knew he had shared. Little did they know he was manipulating them and us.
    Today a quagmire, an economic disaster with no end in sight.
    I visited the Naval hospital last week in advance of Thanksgiving with some thanks from my company and talked to injured Marines. They said that it is not the complaining going on at home that made them mad, but the lack of resources and equipment and a plan to get to peace. They still don't have that. Sorry to go on.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 5:22:00 PM  

  • Mr. Faunce I just wanted to clarify that although I am for A.C's right to develop their property and their right to sue the city, I am also against the idea of sueing councilmen individually or A.C. using a strategy that creates conflicts of interest that causes our representatives to be impotent. I can see where other entities want to be involved. This could result in an interesting legal mess.

    Now for the B.S: Jeff want a cracker? Mr. Parrot you do not have a single original thought. Write to the DNC. and see if they can put you on the "insider" talking point list.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 5:43:00 PM  

  • Oh yeah and Jeff I guess the manipulation for war was also coming from the Dems years before 911: "As a member of the House Intelligence Commitee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep Nancy Pelosi Dec. 1998

    "(Iraq) admitted, among other things, an offensive biological warfare capability- notably 5000 gallons of botulinum, which causes boyulism; 2000 gallons of anthrax; 25biological filled scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs. And might I say UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its production."
    Bill Clinton Feb 1998

    The majority of Democrats voted for the war and have continued to fund the war... even while at the same time trying to undermine it.
    Why do they want us to lose? Do they think if we lose the war that they win politically? How dispicable! And then yesterday our former President is criticizing the war from foreign soil! In previous conflicts statements that the former President made would have resulted in his lynching! How dare he lie and embolden the enemy! The man should get off the stage and go find another intern.
    And there Jeff goes again assuming EVERYONE who participated in the poll he cites thinks the way he does. Maybe Jeff needs to reschedule his board meetings to Wednesdays and pay more attention to his local issues and spend lees time trying to cut and paste DNC propaganda.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 6:54:00 PM  

  • Rholmgren,
    Clinton didn't take us to war. Pelosi didn't take us to war. Bush and the Republicans took us to war. Jeff is right, you have an anchor around your neck and you'll never survive. Didn't you say to continue on to Syria and Iran. What a maniac. You are as fanatical as Al Queda. Is your name Osama Rhom Agren. What are you going to do with the Middle East when you conquer it all? Feed the poor? You arguments are meaningless. Don't you get the point silly little boy. No one thinks your credible.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:15:00 PM  

  • Hey rholmgren, why don't you enlist? you didn't you enlist if you love war? what have you ever done? you right wing looney's will soon be pushed aside. you back every crook. youve stood up for ks and jvh and gw and every one of these losers. grow up and head for the border before we lock you and the rest of the illegals out.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:40:00 PM  

  • 7:15 and 7:40 When did the mental hospital that you are staying at give you internet priviledges? I really do not care if you think I am credible. Now go back to your room and put your staight jackets on and start rocking aimlessly in your rocking chairs while staring pointlessly into space.....

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, November 17, 2005 8:10:00 PM  

  • I am new to the Murrieta-blog. I have enjoyed the reading very much. I thought you all might enjoy a first impression of the posts.

    I see only one poster posting facts. That woud be rholmgren. He articulates his point well, time and time again. (I don't know the man.)

    It's also telling to see posters who hide behind screen names calling a man who posts his name~ a coward.


    I moved to Murrieta in 1988. Before it was even "The Gem of the Valley". I have seen the gem fade into a lump of coal. Murrieta has become an over-built, under managed, typical so. CA city.

    My family will not be staying. We have already found another gem and will be relocating there.

    I bid you all good luck in reclaiming the "Gem" that once was.

    JMP

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, November 18, 2005 9:47:00 AM  

  • JMP: Facts and Rholmgren? I'm sorry, but historically they don't share the same space and time. Articulate? You, sir or madam, have to be kidding. Have you read much of what goes on in this blog, or are you just shooting from the hip? And what's this "hiding behind a screen name" chide from someone who chooses to use initials as a signature? There's nothing wrong with using a screen name, but why knock yourself for doing just that? And if you were among the citizens on whose watch the "gem" turned to "coal", then by all means please do leave and take your influence elsewhere.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, November 18, 2005 11:07:00 AM  

  • 11:07 your style is starting to resemble alot of other previous posts. Let me take a guess: Your nickname is Sourpuss of the Valley?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, November 18, 2005 12:31:00 PM  

  • Mr. Rholmgren,
    You may be right about 11:07 being someone who posts often, and 'Sourpuss' is right. But you know somthing interesting that I've noticed is that people really do influence each other in places like this blog. I've seen some anons and some known personalities who write picking up some of each others phrases and ideas and then using them as their own. Its kind of an interesting part of whats going on here. Just an observation for whatever its worth.
    We2

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, November 18, 2005 12:44:00 PM  

  • We2,
    Sorry, I have no reason to not link my name to every post I write. Why would I not. I could care less who hears what I say. Remember, I posted that the war in Iraq was a mistake long before 70% of Americans joined with me.

    Oh....by the way isn't it beautiful and warm today and I got paid. My life is so incredible. Who really cares about the great things I personally enjoy.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, November 18, 2005 1:26:00 PM  

  • Jeff,
    It never even occurred to me that 11:07 might be you. What did I say that made you think that? I have no idea where you are coming from in your 1:26 post.
    We2

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, November 18, 2005 3:06:00 PM  

  • WE2,
    I assumed that you were concurring with someone else as on here and the only one that gets called names is me. No big deal.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, November 18, 2005 3:37:00 PM  

  • We2 The thing that is really missing "hear" is the conveyance of humor which is a big part of my life. Have a great weekend. Jeff is right for once the weather is spectacular and the time has come for some hardcore Chargers tailgating.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, November 18, 2005 5:36:00 PM  

  • Rholmgren,
    I love reading your posts, because of your convictions, and your accuracy. It drives me nuts to witness how people run screaming when things get tough. I was pleased when President Bush recently confronted these "weeds" who change with the direction of the wind and told them it is irresponsible to change history. When I was a senior in High School so many many years ago, we had to read "1984" and I will never forget it. If the kerrys/kennedys and hillarys were in charge, that fictional account could come seriously close to being a reality. I certainly agree with you that Bush has not been firm enough in defense of himself, but I also think he is above all that. He is a man with incredible strength of character and ideals. You, Rholmgren also appear to be a man of solid ideals and from what I have read, you state the truth. However, you should take a cue from President Bush and be above the name calling and bashing. You are in the right, you don't need to attack someone who is simply questioning. There is nothing wrong with that. Look at it as giving a factual education to a philosophical type of guy while gaining insight into a different perspective.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:07:00 PM  

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