MURRIETA OPEN FORUM - Get it said, get it read, communications for the community.

Wednesday, December 28, 2005

It’s Kevin Jeffries’ Pay Off Time. by Edward Faunce

Monday, December 26, 2005
2:55 PM

Kevin Jeffries has passed his “Training Day” initiation rite by showing that he would support private developers opposition to Murrieta City residents. Now, the private developer donors are lining up to show their appreciation to Murrieta’s "Benedict Arnold."

Below is reproduced a December 14, 2006 letter from Dan Stephenson which explains why he, his friends and business associates are funding Jeffries’s State Assembly candidacy. Oh, Dan goes through the usual eyewash saying:

“We need State Assemblymen who represent our Community, and Kevin Jeffries is this type of individual.” (See letter below)

But what did Jeffries do for Murrieta that ordinary Murrietans should support his run for the Assembly? Dan explains:

“[H]e did something that no one else has ever done - he got the Republican Party to endorse our local campaign on the 'No On Recall' in Murrieta. That was a gutsy stance for a politician to take, but it's the kind of individual we as a community need.” (See letter below)

But Jeffries got called on the carpet during the anti-recall campaign, because there were many republican Murrietans who supported and worked long hours in favor of the recall.

In the April 2, 2005 Californian, Wyatt Haup wrote an Article entitled “County GOP flip-flops on recall issue." Jeffries was quoted saying to the newspaper inquiry:

“The [recall] issue is up for discussion at a meeting of the group's executive board Tuesday." Jeffries also said the e-mail was delivered to constituents while he was in Sacramento, suggesting he would have tried to steer a different course. "We are going to examine, as to any public position we want to take or public statement we want to make,” said Jeffries.

However, according to Dan Stephenson, it was Jeffries who took the "gutsy stance" and arranged for the County GOP opposition. Perhaps Jeffries lied, to the Californian, about his role in getting the County Republican organization to back the anti-recall movement.

But Dan wants Jeffries elected to the State Assembly because of his "community service." Well, Mr. Dan Stephenson, you have a warped idea of community service. You see, Dan, the Murrieta City Council is a non-partisan office. The reason why no one, in Jeffries’s position, has ever officially involved the County Republican Party in a Murrieta City Council election, is that it is against the rules!

But, the rules don’t apply to Stephenson and his business friends, they’ve got the money - $600,000 just for the recall. Nor do the rules apply to politicians like Jeffries, he needs the Stephenson group’s monies.

Donors, like the Stephenson group, and politicians, like Jeffries, are both on the same page. Stephenson-group type donors are looking for politicians that can be bought and political wannabees, like Jeffries, are looking for well-heeled donors to sponsor them.

Perfect, a match made in political heaven! Jeffries is for sale and the Stephenson group bought the right of first refusal.

But what about the real Murrietans? You know, the ones who are working hard to pay for their homes, probably commuting hours to a job, raising a family, struggling with the traffic, worried about the crowded schools, hoping that their City is being managed with their best interests as the raison d'etre for Council decisions? Well, Jeffries has already demonstrated that he does not represent their interests. Jeffries represents the Stephenson group who are ready, willing and able to shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars to insure that they have our elected officials on their donation payroll.

The Murrieta Recall of 2005 was a watershed event. No longer can it be denied that Murrieta was being run by a biased and conflicted City Council. No longer can it be denied that the Murrieta City Chamber of Commerce is merely a front organization for non-Murrieta businesses seeking to pad their bottom lines. No longer can the County Republican Party claim to “represent” ordinary Murrietans.

No Murrietan, whether republican, democrat, independent, green, peace and freedom, libertarian, etc., has any reason to vote for Jeffries. He’s already sold Murrieta out once. He will do it again if Stephenson’s group so commands.

Come next November, Jeffries should receive NO VOTES from Murrietans. Come next November, every person supported by the Stephenson Group and the complicit Murrieta Chamber should receive NO VOTES for City Council membership.

The recall helped Murrietans identify those City Council candidates who should be avoided at all costs. It’s a litmus test now! Any Murrietan desiring to serve on the City Council should avoid the usual support requests to the Stephenson Group, the Chamber, and all the lifer politicians who ignored the residents.

One Anonymous poster to this Blog counseled "Give it up, the Stephenson Group, the Chamber and the GOP are fully in control. The recall of van Haaster was just a fluke."

Maybe, but the residents' recall battle-cry was "The ballot box is mightier than the bank account." We will have to prove that fact again in November '06. Our collective eyes are opened. That’s my take on what the Recall did for us.

Edward Faunce

Here is the December 14, 2005 Stephenson letter:

331 Comments:

  • Here we go again - only the RM people have the answers...sigh, this is truly getting old.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 28, 2005 2:47:00 PM  

  • Ed,
    Thank you for doing the research, taking a stand and caring enough about this City to stick your neck out.

    Have we seen one politician in this town tell it like it is? Have you seen one Councilman stand up and say the buck stops here? Have you seen one that has a true and absolute backbone?

    We need individuals who stand up to the money that the development community wants to use to steamroll us.

    I takes people like Ed Faunce. It takes the bloggers here to talk to your neighbor about the things you have seen here. It takes you to ask them how they like driving down our streets on any afternoon. Ask them about the schools their kids attend. Ask them if they care about the type of City we live in and ask them if they want it to be overrun with apartments and the things that come with massive apartment complexes? Then tell them why these things are taking place. Tell them to drive through Lake Elsinore west of the 15, around the lake and ask them if thats what they want on our south side and along Washington? When you hear their opinions tell them there are men, like Ed Faunce that want to help this City be everything it can be and not sell it out. Then come back here and like me, ask Ed Faunce to run for City Council. Ed you have won my vote and more, I will work hard to make sure you win. I will ask my neighbors to vote for you and have them talk to their neighbors. Like voting out JVH, we can rid ourselves of Seyarto this time and prevent JVH from coming back. We can really examine other candidates to see if their trails lead back to Stephenson and VanHaaster. We have work to do and we need Ed Faunce.

    If this sounds like an endorsement commercial, it is. Lets not let the VanHaaster agenda steam roll us. Most of the single family homes in this area are built and we as a group need to stand up, as we are the real taxpayers here. We are the ones that our elected City Council should be defending, not future apartment dwellers. Lets take a stand....we have 11 months. If we don't we cannot blame anyone but ourselves.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 28, 2005 5:38:00 PM  

  • This is just a rehash of old news. The recall was definitely not a watershed event and it was definitely not a ringing endorsement of the RM agenda. The vote was split practically straight down the middle. Look at the numbers Mr. Faunce! Almost even! And yet MR Faunce acts like it left a mandate on the future direction of Murrieta. The pendulum could easily swing the other way during the next election. You sure have been helping yourself and the organizatin that you represent by posting positions with Leftist leanings. Keep it up we on the other side appreciate the help.(And no we are not the dark side)I would really be surprised if you EVER endorsed a Republican for anything.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 28, 2005 6:22:00 PM  

  • A small group of residents, stood up and beat a unethical Mayor who was not only backed and supported by 25 times the money but the local Chamber of Commerce, every City Management official except Enochs and Ostling, local newspapers and the local Republican politicians. A close win.....NO...for short sighted tunnel visioned people.....an amazing victory for the residents of our City. A local home owners group, showed up the backers of unethical politician.....amazing, but very typical of todays world.
    The homeowners of Murrieta will again rise up and answer the corruption and cash power that wants to build Murrieta into the next Hemet.

    So thats what happens Roy, when low income housing comes into a City. Hemet....why would you support that? Do we want Hemet or do we want a first class City, one others look at as an example. Are we the diamond of the valley or the dying rose?
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:43:00 PM  

  • To me the money spent is irrelevant. The only number that matters is the vote count which establishes the support on the issues raised by RM. Even if the developers spent 2 million I doubt if the vote count would have changed much. The RM group reminds me of a football team that keeps patting itself on the back for too long after a victory. As more residents move here wanting more of the services that they had in their previous residences there will be more pressure to develop Murrieta not less. Jeff when was Hemet ever given as an example to emulate? It is obvious that the road Murrieta is currently and has already made Murrieta a great place to live. You can thank Mr Vanhaster, Mr Seyarto, Mr Washington And other past council members for their wisdom. ( Except the do nothings Enochs and Ostling if we had listened to them in the past we would definitely be more like Hemet.)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 8:32:00 AM  

  • Rholmgren, you just don't get it. You persist in claiming that the RM agenda is no growth. Wise up. How many times do we have to explain to you that there is a difference between "smart growth" and "unrestrained growth" in terms of the quality of Murrieta.

    Quit beating your broken drum. And by the way, if you think that the amount of money spent by the developers is irrelevant what about "Return on Investment" (ROI). You don't think they look for something in return?

    That's the problem for the rest of us because the ROI for the developers leaves the ordinary Murrieta residents with enormous problems that they must finance. Including you.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:06:00 AM  

  • Mr Faunce the same groups and people who were slow growth advocates long ago are now smart growth advocates today. They have gotten more saavy and stealthier over the years with their agenda and I do not like it when groups hide behind slogans like smart growth in order to conceal their real agenda. I also do not see the enormous problems that you and your group do. There are always ongoing issues in every community as cities grow. I have been here much longer than you Mr. Faunce and Murrieta and its leadership has consistently made wise decisions most of the time. There are many examples around Southern Calif. of cities making poor decisions and squandering public funds. Murrieta is not one of them. Mr. Faunce I concentrate on the fact that Murrieta has made wise decisions most of the time while you and your group hammer the poor decisions that were made some of the time. I would be more accepting of your group if there was not such a concerted effort on your group's part to ignore the positive about Murrieta and accentuate the negative.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:38:00 AM  

  • I am so tired of the negativity and critism about our great city! Mr. Faunce and his staunch supporters Jeff and ME should seriously consider moving to a place where they could be happy. If a place like that exists, that is! Rescue Murrieta ran on a single issue and successfully removed one out of three targeted councilmen. The citizens disagreed with RM, they did not feel all 3 councilmen deserved to be removed. RM deserves credit for getting the recall started! However, I do believe Faunce and RM are a negative force in this community, driven by hostility and ambitions that really do not represent the majority of citizens. Yes, we have experienced growing pains and we have been inconvenienced and it will continue until build out. It is good to be a watchful citizen and insure Murrieta is not going "to the dogs". Lets write letters and speak at council meetings reminding the leaders we are here and watching! Yes, we want parks, yes we want enough schools, yes we want traffic relief! Yes we want jobs and good businesses! I am sure the City officials know it and want the same things. They are working towards those goals and are not this evil group of people that want to damage this city.
    Mr. Faunce, I suggest you sit down with our city leaders and become familiar with their vision for the city! If you want to run for council and change the future of this city, then do so and lay out your great plans. But all you do is damage, tear down and raise suspicion on the current people that are working hard for this city! I think you and your RM group take way to much credit and are not as important to the well being of Murrieta as you think. It might be nice if you and Jeff took a break from this blog! We need some fresh input with more balanced views!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:42:00 AM  

  • Anon 9:42, What is your take on the 400+ unit apartment complexes that are about to appear on our horizon, along with all the traffic and related problems that come with such complexes? Do you think it would have been more likely or less likely that these apartments would get a final stamp of approval if vanHaster were still in office? Do you think the approval process ever would have come as far as it has with city employee staff if that process had not been initiated under the dual reign of vanHaster and Seyarto? If you really think vanHaster and Seyarto care more about this city than they do for apartment development interests, only one thing can be said: Get real.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:56:00 AM  

  • Hmm, Rholmgren, you said: "I do not like it when groups hide behind slogans like smart growth in order to conceal their real agenda."

    So you must really be upset with the "Southwest County Taxpayers for Responsible Government," right?

    Talk about hiding behind a misleading name to conceal their real agenda. Out of the County developers pretending to care about Murrieta City's government. They only care if the council gets off of their donation payroll.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:00:00 AM  

  • Anon 9:42, said: "I am so tired of the negativity and critism about our great city!"

    That's exactly what those, who desire to control our City Council, are hoping for.

    Don't you understand that the criticisms of the Stephenson-developer group (the bogus Southwest County Taxpayers for Responsible Government), the bogus Murrieta Chamber of Commerce are not criticisms of our City! They are warnings about those would like to control our City.

    So, if you tired and think this is a negative, then obviously this blog discussion is not for you.

    And by the way, you sound like Kelly Seyarto.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:11:00 AM  

  • 9:42,
    You want to limit our freedom of speech? Why would that be? You can see who posts and move on if you don't like it. But thats not why is it. You don't want unsuspecting homeowners to know. You don't want this information out there.

    All of us agree that this city is and will be great!! Thats why we should fight so hard for it.

    I will be out here for the next 11 months saying the things I feel and no one, using fear tactics, name calling, accusations will stop me.

    So I welcome your comments, but if it's to say how great this City is and can be, thats a given. Its what we need to do to preserve it that needs to be out there in the public view.

    Our Mayor and his sidekick tried to slam an apartment complex through that one of the other Councilmen called a slum. Should we be silent? Should we say thats OK? No, we should speak. If we stay silent more of the Cunninghams get away with crimes.

    Being negative is the only way to speak our mind. Do you really care how wonderful I think the new shopping plaza is? Would anyone want to read and spend time about things that we are mostly all in agreement on? Do you go to Council meetings to tell them how wonderful the last traffic light is? I don't think so. You go there to alert them to problems and to tell them your feelings on issues.

    So speak your mind, but let me speak mine.

    As I said, the more the pot is stirred the more vocal they will become. It frightens the VanHaasters and Seyarto and Stephenson's to hear the truth and for the general public to know.

    Don't you hear the repetition? Roy then this next person.....it's the same thing you hear on defensive political shows....just shut up...the same rhetoric. But we are Americans and have earned our right to speak.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:58:00 AM  

  • Roy,
    You really don't get it! Im sorry for you. The more money spent advertising, there is no affect on the voting? Why does anyone advertise? Why all the stupid signs? Your logic makes no sense. Do you defend EVERY conservative agenda because it represents conservatism? WOW. How terrible to have to support everything, no matter how it effects your neighbors for your ideology.

    So I can thank VanHaaster for redoing a street that serves only his business...Old Town? What else do you visit there except the Mill? Do you frequent Joannies? I mean I have no opinion of Joannies, except why spend the money to upgrade that area when we have pot holes and water running all over the streets around the new police station? Thank Jack for the new daycare center that he benefits from with city paid improvements? Why not fix the pot holed street we alldrive on first? Or thank Kelly for force feeding us with Apartment developments? Kelly will be gone in November and someone like Ed will be in. Ostling will be gone too and someone who wants the best for the homeowners that make this their home today will be in his place.

    The services will not expand from apartments, they will just drain this town with more crime and distress. It is the buildup of business that will allow more services, not apartments.

    If you think low income housing benefits a community why not use Hemet or Lake Elsinore as an example? Thats what will result in ten years for Murrieta. Yes, they look new the first year or two but soon they run down and more and more crime occurs.
    Why is it you are so repetitive? Boy if Ed is leftist, and you are rightist, I will take his reasoning and logic everyday for one reason. It makes sense.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 11:21:00 AM  

  • Mr. Holmgren:
    You stated that you have been here longer than Mr. Faunce. Your point is??? I have been here over 27 years, when horses outnumbered humans. What does that have to do with anything? I heard that same logic when I moved here in 1978 and it did not seem to make sense then as it doesn't now. By the way, I am a registered Republican and Mr. Faunce makes more sense to me then Hollingsworth, Haynes, Seyarto, vanHaaster, McAllister, Dan Stephenson, and Kevin Jeffries all rolled into one. City politics is supposed to be non-partisan and when the Riverside County Republicans stuck their nose into local politics in Murrieta it infuriated alot of us "Republicans" in town.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 1:01:00 PM  

  • Old Timer... Your entry inspired me to chime in and say "Me too". I too am a Republican, and it makes my blood pressure rise when I see these local politicians put themselves on display as Republicans when in reality they're nothing more than opportunists who dance at the end of puppet strings held by the housing development industry. Those guys are not Republicans in spirit. They are abusers of the party who try to hide behind the name. Some day the Republican community is going to wake up and understand what is going on locally, and these guys will be sent packing.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 2:17:00 PM  

  • I am one of the men who you see with his wife down at Carrows each Sunday having breakfast. Our children grew up in Murrieta and have made their homes here. My wife is even typing this for me, as I had to respond. As life long residents of this area, we have watched the area grow and don't mind the growth but all of my family sees the traffic problems that have been causes by growing too fast. We support Ed, Jeff and Been There. Thanks Old Timer for raising your voice too. We are not voters by party line but want changes in the direction our home has gone in. We support anyone standing up to the current city administration. We don't want riff raff coming in here and turning this into a Hemet or Sun City. We like the new houses but want to limit multi-family apartments. Stop Seayerto and Doug Mcalister.
    Old Timers too

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 4:01:00 PM  

  • Everyone on this blog,
    Let's make sense of all this commotion. How does it help me, the Murrieta homeowner, to have slum apartments move into my area? After all these beautiful homes have been built, why do we want more traffic, more low income familes, more low class families. I hate to put it that way, but I moved to Murrieta because everything was of higher quality then the towns north along the 15 and 215. I dont mind developing more stores and businesses but I'm for sure not interested in lower class apartment dwellers. Their kids then will overcrowd our already busting at the seams schools not to mention the gang elements. Go Mr.Faunce, Go Been There, Go MurrietaEyes and Jeff. Jeff are you married?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 4:20:00 PM  

  • Yes Mr. Faunce the same goes for SCTRG. Thanks to you everyone knows who they are and that is the way it should be. The agendas of organizations need to be known so the public can make informed decisions. Up to this point Mr Faunce I have been guessing and accusing RM of certain agendas because at this point your group is like Murrieta's version of One Bill Gill (Cedillo). What ever happened to the new RM Web site and shouldn't everyone be aware of your group's total agenda the same way you have attempted to reveal the COC SCTRG agendas?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:20:00 PM  

  • If 4:20 represents the element and class of people who have moved to Murrieta, we are in big trouble. She should just sign her post as Ms. High and Mighty. Ignorant sterotyping by people like that is far more detrimental to a community than the supposed low class people living in apartment communities. Lord help us if people like this want to govern our city.

    Low class apartment dweller

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:42:00 PM  

  • Bravo, Mr. R Holmgren, no need to add or say anymore, I compliment your post at 7:20p!
    Gottorun, I hope someone has the answer,I have been wondering about the same!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:48:00 PM  

  • Roy,
    Who cares if Rescue Murrieta is still active? Does it matter? They served a purpose and acheived the main goal, to break up the voting block. Doesn't that just piss you off?

    Now they can form a new group and call it " Murrietans for ethical City Government".

    If we have met a quota and I believe that our Mayor, when he was arrogantly displaying his mouth on this blog under his name (now he just hides it so the Republican party doesn't get embarrassed), said that there is no quota number. He also went on to say that the reason we need low income housing because our teachers and policemen (I guess firefighters are a higher class because Kelly has a home) will have no where else to live and that all the young people were packing their cars and fleeing in a mass exodus for Arizona and Utah.

    I think if there is a quota and we have reached it, we shut apartment development down. Or at least huge complexes. In some sense 4:20 is right when most of us homeowners want a beautiful and safe community. It is just logical to understand that with large low income housing complexes more crime will follow. If you don't take my word, drive through a complex in Hemet on a Friday night and feel free to get out and walk around and tell me how safe you feel. Now drive into any Murrieta residential neighborhood and do the same thing, its a much safer feeling. So how much of that do we want in our community. It's as sterotypical as statistics show. Now I know I will hear from Roy but sorry buddy, low income apartments will bring more crime. It will bring in more drugs. It will bring in a tougher crowd that will saturate our city, be it in schools or playgrounds. Is that high and mighty talk? Well, Low class apartment dweller, how much have you invested in your apartment? I have 600K invested in my home and I want to protect it. Your apartment complex enviorment runs down and you move. My neighborhood runs down I lose thousands. Thats why it is important to homeowners. When you save enough to invest, you will care too.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 8:04:00 PM  

  • Like I said, if these comments represent the class and intellect of people who have invaded Murrieta, then we are in big, big trouble. To 8:04, did you invest $600,000 or is that what your house is worth today? I'll lay a wager that you bought for much lower and have been able to sit on your butt and watch your equity grow at my expense. Being able to afford an expensive house doesn't necessarily promote you to being high class. My apartment is actually a townhome which cost me a cool $340,000. Did you pay less? Are you just a low class person who got lucky? Also, I've got a great pool area and recreation area to boot. What's so low class about that? And what's so low class about my $2,200 a month mortgage payment?

    All this blog shows is that there are some really ignorant people in this supposedly upscale community. I'll make sure all my neighbors get out and vote next year.

    I'm glad I surfed the net and stumbled on this site. I learned something about some of the people who live in this community and it isn't pretty. Now, I think I will simply leave well enough alone and let you regulars wallow in your high opinions of yourselves. What a joke.

    LCAD

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:24:00 PM  

  • Rholmgren, thanks for asking the two question:

    “Up to this point Mr Faunce I have been guessing and accusing RM of certain agendas because at this point your group is like Murrieta's version of One Bill Gill (Cedillo). What ever happened to the new RM Web site and shouldn't everyone be aware of your group's total agenda the same way you have attempted to reveal the COC SCTRG agendas?”

    First, although I was the spokesperson for RM during the recall and for a period of time afterwards, I have a life and persona separate from RM. If you will review my numerous posts to this blog, you will find few, if any, postings in which I claim that I’m speaking for RM. That’s why I sign my name without attaching any organizational title.

    Second, you asked about the RM web site. We took it down. Unlike the developers, RM got all of its monies from ordinary Murrietans. We had no reason to continue to incur the monthly costs.

    Third, and most important, you have misunderstood from the very beginning what RM was all about. So, for example, you ask whether everyone “. . . shouldn’t be aware of your group’s total agenda . . .” But RM never had a total agenda. RM was formed by a group of energized residents who saw that the Murrieta City Council was totally dysfunctional. Our City was being run by van Haaster, who had managed to garner two supporting votes - Seyarto and McAllister. RM took on the task of challenging this voting block because it was discovered that van Haaster was abusing his office and the other two, especially Seyarto, were helping him cover it up.

    That’s it. That was the total RM agenda. Did RM succeed? I think so. The voting block was broken.

    But the recall process also produced some unexpected information. The entire City was treated to a political bombardment against the recall that was breathtaking in its cost. I refer to the $600,000 SCTFRG’s campaign. Additionally, the vehemence with which the Murrieta Chamber joined the developers caused many, myself included, to personally investigate its connections to the SCTRFG. Equally surprising, was the near hysterical outcry from the County Republican Party in also joining the anti-recall parade. Finally, and from a personal perspective, I was targeted with a four-page glossy 8.5x11 hit piece EVEN THOUGH I WAS NOT A CANDIDATE. Why such ugliness?

    After the recall election, there were the usual public requests for “healing” and “can’t we just get along” type language. So RM decided to fade back into the community leaving only a core group who regularly meet to discuss how things are going and to keep a finger on whether there is a need to put together another citizens’ group. There is no formal RM agenda at the moment.

    Nevertheless, my curiosity was peaked by all that I observed during the recall. I admit that I was surprised by the enormous organization and funding of the anti-recall movement. There were times when I thought that the group was simply too “powerful” to resist. So, when the recall smoke cleared, and with RM standing down, I decided to do some investigative reporting to see if we could connect the dots and gain a better understanding of why Murrieta was being developed in the fashion we all observe.

    As an aside, you will note that no mass media is expending this effort, not the Californian, the Press Enterprise, the Valley News and certainly not the Murrieta Insider. The reason? Follow the money. Look at the Rancon advertising in those papers and ask whether they could survive without it? Look at the legal notices published by the City of Murrieta in those papers. Murrietans were going to have dig out this story on their own.

    Once we got our hands on the financial reports filed by the Southwest Taxpayer’s etc. and broke down the contributions by business, by County, by City, it was apparent that this organization was a fraud. Whoever dreamed up the name for that political action community intended to mislead Murrietans about the real agenda of that group. And who was the person who spearheaded it? Why Dan Stephenson – Mr. Rancon.

    I’ve said it before that I’m sure that Dan S did not want to have to come out of the shadows. But assurances to Dan from the Trio (Jvh, KS, DM), that everything was under control, could not be believed when the reports were coming in about the success of the signature gathering. So, Dan S, put out a four-page glossy brochure - with fake Murrieta pictures - in the summer of ‘04. That backfired, and he had to obtain even greater financing in order to hire the political spinmeisters from Sacramento. Why? Because he was in danger of losing his Kingdom! He had worked so hard to cultivate Jvh, KS and DM. He did fail to get Enochs removed, but at least he had a voting majority on the Council.

    Next we looked at the Murrieta Chamber. There we discovered that it was also a bogus Murrieta organization. When the Chamber gave Dan S the citizen of the year award, it was obvious that the Chamber was yet another alter ego of Dan and Rancon.

    We were still puzzled about the County Republican party organization. During the recall campaign, may of the republican RM workers were incensed by the interference in our non-partisan Council situation. I know personally that many of my republican friends contacted Kevin Jeffries and complained about the interference in our Council matters. Jeffries put everybody off by claiming that it was a decision over which he had no control. Yeah, right.

    But then Dan S dropped another piece of the puzzle into our laps with his letter explaining that Jeffries was really responsible for getting the County Republican party to endorse the anti-recall forces. Dan was so appreciative of this unprecedented partisan interference that he is holding a fund rasing at his Bear Creek Mansion so that all his business buddies can fatten Jeffries campaign coffers.

    Oh yes, but it’s about connecting the dots. Well all roads lead back to a common source, Mr. Dan Stephenson and his Rancon empire. What is clear is that Dan is a political king maker. He has put together a group who have funded the campaigns for many local and County politicians. (Check out Dan’s contributions to Jeff Stone, for example.) Dan put together the SCTFRG, Dan has supported the Murrieta Chamber (and been worshiped by them in response) knowing that it essentially the same group of businesses that feed off the development of this area.

    And why can Dan command the County Republican Party to go against its own internal rules? Because his economic support to the politicians and the wannabees exceeds any amount local residents put into their coffers.

    So what we have discovered because of the recall is that this City was being run by developers acting though the political process whereby politicians were at least on the donation payroll. The inside developers knew that there projects would be approved. It was just a game, a chess game. Get the Council majority who then appoint the planning commission. Then we will all play the game that Planning Commission reviews the projects and makes an informed opinion. But at the same time, the Council majority was packing the Planning Commission with persons they knew were partial to certain developers.

    To Murrietans busy with the overwhelming demands of raising families, working, commuting etc., there was no time to learn these facts. They assumed, nay then hoped, that the City was really looking out for them. Wrong. But how would they ever know. Only this Blog gives individuals, like myself, the opportunity to spend my precious spare time looking into Murrieta’s real story and then giving the opportunity to put that information out for others to consider.

    So, Mr. Rholmgren, there is no “real” RM agenda. Just an RM generated opportunity to uncover the reasons why the recall SCARED the real power of this community and County to come out of hiding. We learned who they are and now are forewarned. Just like the Bible says, it becomes everyone who has been warned to warn his neighbor. If we do that, it will make no difference how much money Dan Stephenson or all of his friends have, we still have the ballot box and we can insist that our City Council members be free of economic conflict of interest.

    Thanks Joe Kunkle for providing a free and unrestrained place for this Murrieta conversation to take place.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:38:00 PM  

  • I love how the high society folks in Murrieta don't want low income housing in "their" version of Murrieta.

    Yep, keep them poor people out. They're just not worthy of living where we live...

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, December 29, 2005 11:32:00 PM  

  • LCAD,
    Why are people like you so way off base all the time. Because it's not about looking at what is said as attacking this blog because of the reasonable and logical comments that threaten the careers of Jack VanHaaster, Kelly Seyarto, Doug McAlister and Dan good ole boy Chamber of Commerce. Is a $350,000 condo low income housing to you, or are you uneducated? Now you can get on here and talk all you want but you came after me. So tell me where in my post your $350,000 condo fits bright boy.

    It doesn't fit and he won't answer. It's just another attack from the Chamber of Commerce group that will continue. Watch if it doesn't.

    I am for upscale condos. I am for apartments to a point but slamming this town with low income housing....did you read that sir??????????? Low income housing will not serve the homeowners who dominate paying taxes here. Period. I don't consider myself above anybody. Did you read that sir???? But I do want to protect my investment. I want to protect my community and make it upscale. But you sir can have any opinion you like, just dont call me something I am not. I am the neighbor who went to homes of Military personel and gave out of my pocket, I am the neighbor of yours that has taken in a homeless child and found a home for him, I sir just want to protect the value of the home I have invested in. If you dont care about your money or investments Im sure you wouldnt care if the bank left the cash you have in savings laying out. Is it too upity to want to protect an investment.

    Only to people who suffer if those low income apartments don't come to Murrieta.....the development community and the City government officials who stand to unethically profit.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 8:06:00 AM  

  • Thanks for the answer Mr. Faunce. From this point forward I will drop the RM references and stick to the present issues unless RM decides to get active again. I believe in the organizational transparancy of political groups even if it exposes groups that I politically back.

    LCLAD if Jeff bought his house new 4 years ago he paid about the same amount that you paid for your residence. Ten years ago I paid $125,000 for my 2000 sguare ft house in the Cal Oaks area. I guess that according to the logic of many posters on this site I would have to be lower class than even the apartment dwellers since the mortgage payment is so much less than a rental payment is. I just can not stand the arrogance of people that have recieved a financial windfall and then turn around and advocate polices that prevents others from the opportunity to benefit from the same type of windfall in the future.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 9:35:00 AM  

  • To the high society types of Murrieta, a little advice. Find another place to share your opinions. It's just a matter of time before this blog belongs to supporters of people you hate. There will be so many writers who oppose you that your words will be hard to find. Ta Ta, Highbrows!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 12:13:00 PM  

  • To 11:32 and a couple related contributors: You are either Mr. Seyarto, van Haster, Kassein Klein, or one of their relatives who hope to gain politically via campaign donations. Or there is one other possibility. You are the owner of a local business (and a CofC member) that intends to profit from the huge influx of welfare dollars that this city will receive as the result of the spending of thousands of inhabitants of low rung apartment projects. Please admit the reason for your support of such projects. One thing is for sure, that reason is not related to the well being of your own children, nor to the concern for traffic conditions in this town. For one reason or another, financial or otherwise, you are the political patsy of people who have their own agendas for wanting to turn the beautiful town of Murrieta into Apartment Hell, and you are no friend of the people who love the beauty and lifestyle of this town.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 12:33:00 PM  

  • 11:32, this is 12:33 with one more thought for you. Before you start to whine with socialist indignation at the 'welfare' comment, I want to emphazize that both you and I know it is true. In areas which have extreme density 3 story apartments of the kind we are talking about (they are more often referred to in any given area as "the projects"), the percentage of welfare recipients is abnormally high. Deny it if you want, but facts are facts and those are the facts. I repeat, you have a self-serving motive of some kind to want to change Murrieta into that kind of environment, including everything that invariably comes along with it. Let us know what that motive is, so we can more fairly consider your opinions, please.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 12:54:00 PM  

  • To 12:13, if this blog is for sale I am unaware of it. If you refer to pro-development interests spamming here, they will have to do it manually, maybe by hiring somebody to type nonsense and post it? No big deal, these voices countering negative impacts of big money on little towns will communicate; if not via this blog then elsewhere.

    Your points regarding elitism I feel are valid, however. The possibility of increased crime is there, but we have a great P.D. in this town, who with adequate funding will be able to maintain the peace. Apartment dwellers=crime I feel is a flawed argument used by both sides of this issue and is an assumption that is not neccessarily true. If we can maintain high standards for this community, it will show.

    A word of thanks to Mr. Ed Faunce for taking the time to investigate many of the leads to corruption revealed by the recall campaign. There's something about hard evidence that make rhetorical speculation the more obvious by comparison. Thank you, Mr. Faunce.

    By Blogger J. L. Kunkle, at Friday, December 30, 2005 1:06:00 PM  

  • 12:54, here's the rub, if all the available commercial space in Murrieta is taken up by apartment complexes, then where are the dwellers therin going to obtain money other than by welfare? I'm sure they could work for a time building apartment complexes, but it seems that this approach to the issue could only exacerbate it.

    It would be better if this town could offer career-style employments, thereby promoting a strong middle class who will in turn become more involved in maintaining a high standard of living. Currently this town seems only capable of employing teens, construction workers, and self-employed persons.

    By Blogger J. L. Kunkle, at Friday, December 30, 2005 1:16:00 PM  

  • J.L. Kunkle: Nobody on this entire blog has ever said "Apartment Dwellers= Crime". We all know that is not true. What is true is that a whole new dynamic comes into play when you move from the subject of apartments to the subject of mass density dwellings situated right in the middle of a heavy-traffic district. This is an inhuman and cruel environment for the apartment dwellers and for the entire surrounding city. It is the beginnings of the creation of a blighted inner city core, and the fact that it is being planned makes it a premeditated crime against this city. The big question is, are we going to lay back and take what is being done to us? We are helpless victims of the political lusts of Kelly Seyarto only if we let ourselves be victims. Putting a humanitarian veneer on this high density apartment issue does not change the ugliness of the true motives of what lies beneath that veneer.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 1:24:00 PM  

  • I feel Rhomgren is on the right track when he talks of speeding up CalTrans.

    Why do we treat the inefficiency of CalTrans as a given, akin to death and taxes? During the recovery from the Northridge quake, was CalTrans not "fast-tracked" as much as fired? A private contractor was offered a bonus to finish earlier than scheduled, and the construction company completed the rebuilding pronto and collected their bonus money.

    I assume that they were required to rebuild existing structures, but engineering still was required due to the magnitude of the quake. How much engineering is required to widen an already existing overpass?

    The caveat here is that the city must be temporarily suspended from the lowest bidder requirement lest we spend years in thrall to Yeager Construction again. The right contract should have heavy penalties for completion behind schedule as part of the bidding process going in, and if CalTrans can't meet these deadlines, then CalTrans doesn't get the job.

    The fact that Riverside County roads are so bad to my mind indicates that the one who should be screaming the loudest at CalTrans to hurry up is our County Supervisor, Jeff Stone.

    By Blogger J. L. Kunkle, at Friday, December 30, 2005 1:59:00 PM  

  • Roy, What logic is it that would say that limiting large low income housing developments would hold back a person from making a windfall on purchasing and home or condo? Is that all you have in your attack mentality?

    I rent a low income apartment in Murrieta. They cost what $900.00 a month. I make $2000.00 a month. So I have a car payment, food, utilities, insurances, gas and other payments. How is renting this apartment enabling me to save money to buy a home and collect my windfall? How am I limited? Come on Roy, step up and tell me....but you won't....because it's another made up story. At that salary I am not going to gain a windfall until my salary out gains my payments.

    But with my apartment I add in my sister and her kids and my kids. Now in my apartment I have 5 or 6 people. But in no way do I find any windfall in this.

    And who said anything about what your mortgage payment is? Where does that fall into ANYTHING Roy? Sometimes the statements you make are opposition to anything I say. If I say that Albertson's is the best grocery store, you come back defending Ralph's. Does that help you in defending your ideology...I dont get it.

    Yes....JL....with low income apartment complexes will come more crime. And not only crime, with this crime WILL come more drug issues and gang issues. Let's drive into Hemet and Lake Elsinore and talk to the police department and ask where the origins of much of the problems come from.....low income housing.

    Should low income housing be restricted from Murrieta....NO!!! Should it however be limited to how many of these complexes are built? YES. If, in places that ARE NOT high commercial areas, we want to build high density complexes that is not a problem with me.....read that Roy!!!! But more massive low income housing is not what we should be building out Murrieta with.

    Roy, I help my employees gain the American dream. I make sure that they learn how to save and have in the past put up money to help with downpayments. Thats is a benefit with a privately owned manufacturer. So to tell me that I want to limit anyone is wrong. I think the government, where we all pay taxes should lend more money to families interested in investing in homes. Federal and State backed programs should be pushing for these people to have a chance at a windfall. However, it won't be a family that is overburdened, on welfare with no hope. Are you for added programs to help get these low income families on their feet, paid for with your tax dollars Roy? If you are we are on the same team. If your not, why do you care if we slam them into low income housing where they can never come out from? Is it just that you are for Corporations profitting from building cheap low income housing complexes....let's find where your true alligence lies.

    But if you care this much about these types of families, I would be glad to have you come to my company and volunteer your time to have what we call "lunch and learns" to help low income families find sources and ways to have the proper down payments and make the home payment. Anytime, you know where I live, drop me a note and I will sign you up. Until then or hell freezes over, tell the facts, not what you have made up in your head or the direction of Corporations that support your ideology.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 3:05:00 PM  

  • LOL - you guys are really funny.

    I'm neither a member of the CC, Planning Comm or a CoC member. I do own and run a small business.

    That being said, I do support most of the CC actions so far, and did not support the RM slow growth agenda. I have no wish to see Murrieta turn into the slum y'all are so sure will happen if low income housing comes in to town, and I think that what is happening in Murrieta is simple.

    Old farts who have lived here forever want it like it was waaay back in the day. New homes, apartment buildings, condo's, whatever all bring a bit more noise, traffic, people with kids that cry and what not to their little town. And they can't stand it.

    Guess what ...Murrieta is growing up, and outgrowing you. Please move to Arizona with the rest of your generation and let a more current generation make the tough decisions. This slow growth/no growth agenda will only do one thing to Murrieta. It will stiffle it. RM only got one third of it's agenda passed - and someone think's that a mandate of the public's will? Please - the only reason JVH got voted out is that no one in the Colony has anything else to do than vote.

    I'd love nothing more than to see new, fresh and YOUNG blood, with new ideas and new ways to improve Murrieta come into power (no offense to DM and KS, who I think do a pretty damn good job). I'd like to see some people who think like business people instead of farmers and crotchety old farts. I'd like to see plans that push and develop and plan Murrieta in the long term, instead of only wanting to push their slow growth agenda, their "oh the traffic is so bad" agenda, the "we don't need low income housing" agenda which is nothing but barely vieled racism. We need the Big Boxes because people shop at them and the tax dollars would be better for all of us if it stayed in Murrieta. We need housing developments to continue to build our tax base and allow infrastructure improvements. We need middle and low income housing, so all that wish to live here can live here. We need CoC's that push business development, so more jobs can be created here, so Murrieta citizens and tax dollars can stay closer to home.

    What we don't need is agenda's that have items like making sure everyone call's each other "sir" at the CC meetings.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 3:42:00 PM  

  • 3:42, you are a facinating read. In particular, your assertion that opposition to the kind of housing that fosters environments of crime is "racism". By introducing race into the crime equation, it is you who's racist attitude is being revealed in all it's ugly glory. By trying to promote undesireable housing by equating it with race, you are yourself equating undesireability with race. Let's all remember who it was that made that assertion. The equation of race with crime came not from anyone who opposed the massive influx of condos and apartments in Murrieta. That ugly equation was proposed by someone who is in favor of the mass housing developers. It just goes to show you the mind set of those who would exploit our town for greed. The moral values of such people are nothing but a bottomless pit.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 5:00:00 PM  

  • What did I say and repeat over and over and over again. The closer we get to the November election the more of these posts from Seyarto and friends will pop up. He CANNOT STAND not posting here.

    So it will be their agenda, supported by the Chamber of Commerce, the local Assemblyman, the Republican party and anyone that has their election funded by the development community. It is as I have been saying for months. Soon it will be announced that Jack Van Haaster is going to run again. He of course will run against Ostling. Seyarto will announce he will be back and they will start posting here in droves.

    What small business owner really cares if low income housing comes here? Think about it. Now lets hear the reasoning on the other side of this. Who spends the real money in this City? The homeowner? Or the apartment dweller? Now we know the poster doesnt own WalMart or Target. Nor does he own a chain eatery. He could have a service business. A landscaper, a mechanic, a fixer upper, a pool cleaner. (Or he could be the default Mayor) Who would his clients be? I guess he could be fixing the abandoned cars that usually can be found in an apartment complex. Or he could know that the money is in upgrading all the new homes that are the real foundation of Murrieta. Maybe he works down on Washington on that newly fixed up street for an accounting firm. Maybe he is the contractor building that huge Day Care Center. The post is just another joke.

    15 years ago I moved here from Chicago and lived in an apartment with my wife for 18 months. Am I racist, or experienced? I lived in the Rancho Bernardo area. Not a low class area, many many retired military. I think at that time the rent was $800 for two bedrooms. I experienced families with 6 people living in two bedroom apartments. 3 cars, usually 1 didnt run. Police cars visiting my building at least once a week. Kids in groups standing out by the entrance and up the street at the 7-11 with nowhere to go because they had no money to spend. The complex was brand new just off Carmel Mountain Road with a very nice commercial district within walking distance. Within 12 months the pool drain had been torn out and the washer and dryer in my building had been vandalized once a month. They raised the rents to bring in secruity guards who patrolled the building. Then just before we moved into our first California home, we had our car stolen by gang members and they tried to pass it through the border. Is that racism I'm talking about?? No, experience. After 18 months you would have thought the complex was 20 years old. Again this was not Hemet or Lake Elsinore but a nice area near San Diego.

    It's not the supporters that disguise themselves and will continue to disguise themselves as impartial. They are very partial to what is said on this blog. They have an interest and the interest is the VanHaaster agenda, to again place a crooked and unethical politician on our City Council. We then will have no say and they will slam whatever they want in here.

    Can't you just hear the arrogance of the "bought" Mayor in 3:42's post. He's worried that the Councilmen have to call each other SIR. Who else would belittle that????? Kelly you fool no one. Hurry go call Jack and tell him to write the next post......hurry Mayor....does it count that you are Mayor by default. Default Mayor.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 7:17:00 PM  

  • Mr. Jeff. I respect you. But, as one of many Republicans who is not "bought" by the development community, and as one of many Republicans who do not support Seyarto and his eroding alliances, I would like to respectfully ask that you stop denouncing my political party with blanket statements that many of us (who support some of the same local issues as you) find very offensive. The fact that several local party members feel the same as I do on this issue proves such blanket statements are unfairly made. As I said, I respect you, and I am asking this of you in a respectful manner. Thankyou.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 8:15:00 PM  

  • Sir,
    I respect you too and I think you should re-read the title to this string written by Ed Faunce. I also include in any list any Democrats or Independant organizations or politicians that back Van Haaster, Seyarto, McAlister or Stephanson. I realize not every Republican backs these crooks. I had hoped you realize it is not a blanket statement of your party....I apologize if it appeared that way.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, December 30, 2005 9:01:00 PM  

  • Jeff, I appreciate your courteous reply to Aonon 8:15.
    I also am a Republican who detests corruption and greed, therefore I am totally behind you and Mr. Faunce in local Murrieta affairs. I wrote many letters expressing my outrage at the Rupulican leaders for involving themselves in our local election. I also believe, that neither the Republican nor the Democrats have all the answers to a "perfect" USA. There are great Republicans and great Democrats, who share their love for this country but have different ideas on how to do their best for this country. That does not make them evil and it offends me to hear cutting and scarcastic remarks that are expressed by bloggers about our President and/or the Republican Party. I would like to join Anon 8:15 and also ask respectfully, that Mr Faunce and you, as well as other bloggers, stop denouncing a President we admire and a Party whose basic principle we strongly support. Thank you very much.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 9:57:00 AM  

  • 9:57,
    I will show respect to Republicans, to all for that matter that I believe are not hurting our great country, but this White House is not among them and there are some leaders of Congress that I will add in there, so if you read the National and Party strings of this blog I don't back off those statements. This doesn't have anything to do with my feeling for the Murrieta City Council as they are suppose to be non-partisan.

    I agree that people, like I have said many times must, form basic principles in their lives. It is when they become so tunnel visioned that they cannot see past the ideology and see the logic and truth about men that can lead an ideology astray. What I ask is that people look forward using reasoning and common sense at the effects ideologies have on all people. To say you are conservative or liberal or independant has to mean something different to every person as all people of one ideology surely cannot believe the same things. There has to be differences from one man to the next. If that doesnt happen, we then become sheep following one man and we know that all men are imperfect. It would be silly and wrong if I defended something or someone I knew was doing wrong to protect an ideology or to protect a political party. Would we not turn in a religious leader who abused children? Those who wouldn't turn him in would not care about the terrible act, but would be OK with it to protect the ideology. I would find that immoral and senseless. That is what I see today and I speak harshly against it. However I fought for and respect others right to speak their opinions and welcome rebuttal any time.

    Again, I just state my own opinion, and I talk for only me. Just as Ed Faunce does, as we are not in City government. I would state less if I was in that role and my opinion would have to be tempered to fit the need of all, not just my own.

    But if you go back and read the posts of Kelly Seyarto before the Republican party put a gag order on him, you will see the irrogent nature and the non-caring attitude he carried and now he has title of default Mayor. I would hope all remember that in November and realize he will never change as he hasn't to this point.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:47:00 AM  

  • Jeff: By comparing your replies to those of Kelly Seyarto you are reducing yourself to his level. We on this blog do not need to resort to emotionalism nor personal responses to political matters in order to try to keep this community a better place to live. We do not always have to take a swing at people who take a swing at us. That is the Kelly Seyarto style of dealing with things. It does not have to be ours.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 11:41:00 AM  

  • 11:41,
    I have never called Seyarto a name. Is he a default Mayor..yes. Has he been unethical and arrogant...yes. Crooked is my description of anyone that uses power and the lust for power and sells themselves to the highest bidder. That is my take and I have the right to express that logic. I always said in all my posts that his reputation as a family man is not my concern nor would I ever challange that. I never challenged his professional fire career as that too is not part of our public realm.

    What I will continue to challenge unabated will be his ethics, arrogance and attitude. As long as he works for me, that is my job as a citizen and he has controls of the taxes I pay and the things he establishes in my community.

    I believe that those that do not speak up to ask questions, question our politicians, or defend them are the ones that are unpatriotic. I for one will never be limited as to questions I ask, or my thoughts. Serving in the military and risking my life helped all of you with the same rights. Whether you decide to use them or not is up to you.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 1:12:00 PM  

  • 11:41,
    I have never called Seyarto a name. Is he a default Mayor..yes. Has he been unethical and arrogant...yes. Crooked is my description of anyone that uses power and the lust for power and sells themselves to the highest bidder. That is my take and I have the right to express that logic. I always said in all my posts that his reputation as a family man is not my concern nor would I ever challange that. I never challenged his professional fire career as that too is not part of our public realm.

    What I will continue to challenge unabated will be his ethics, arrogance and attitude. As long as he works for me, that is my job as a citizen and he has controls of the taxes I pay and the things he establishes in my community.

    I believe that those that do not speak up to ask questions, question our politicians, or defend them are the ones that are unpatriotic. I for one will never be limited as to questions I ask, or my thoughts. Serving in the military and risking my life helped all of you with the same rights. Whether you decide to use them or not is up to you.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 1:12:00 PM  

  • For heavens sake Jeff, take a break. You are the most argumentitive blogger here. You seem to have the need for approval or validation, or you have to be right all the time. You explain, justify and defend yourself endlessly! Do you feel we need your long responses on every issue on this blog? We don't care, please just stick to Murrieta issues, that's what we care about!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 2:54:00 PM  

  • 2:54,
    Don't read my posts. Why do you feel the need to talk to me if you dont care?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 3:37:00 PM  

  • To all our Murrieta friends and neighbors, we just want to say "Happy New Year"!!! May 2006 be a year of health and happiness for one and all.
    Tom Suttle & Family

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 4:50:00 PM  

  • I second that!! To all, to making this a healthy and Happy New Year.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 5:09:00 PM  

  • Jeff's take on Republicans is stuck on stupid and I doubt if his perception will ever change. ( I am talking about your opinion Jeff not you) Have you noticed how short my posts are lately Jeff? This is about all the time I have for this thing during the holiday season. Happy New Year

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 6:49:00 PM  

  • Happy New year Rholmgren....too bad about Brees. But you can watch my Bears at least two more times

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, December 31, 2005 7:29:00 PM  

  • Jeff... Viva Mexico no No VIVA GUATEMALA!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, January 01, 2006 1:46:00 AM  

  • Viva Seyarto's political career, Viva Vanhaster's return to power, Viva McAllister's rise to power, Viva Traffic Congestion, Viva Slum Construction, Viva Crime, Viva Endless Developer Paid Campaign Propaganda all the way to the elections in November of this New Year. And "Viva" - long live -they all will if the residents of Murrieta don't fight them all this year as though it were a fight for the quality of their lives and the value of their homes. The year that will forever decide the future of Murrieta has begun.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, January 01, 2006 9:56:00 AM  

  • In an article in today's Californian two mouths on the same body were speaking. Rex Oliver and Lori Moss were commenting on the commercial expansion in the Old Town area. Moss indicated that the tax revenues from that expansion "...will offset the need for services by new residents in condominiums and apartments in the downtown area and possibly provide additional revenue to city coffers." In other words, the revenues that could have been used for the greater good of Murrieta are going to be eaten up by the socio-economic needs that arise from condos and 400-plus low-rung apartment slums. Only "possibly" will a little be left over. Every person in this community should be outraged that the tax-devouring component of this plan is being pushed. No, not just pushed, but crammed down this community's throat. If the remaining land in the commercial corridors is used for top tier commercial development instead of, as Seyarto calls it, "low-rung" housing, then floods of tax revenues will be available instead of tax drains. This will be the case for generations of Murrieta residents to come. The actions being taken RIGHT NOW at City Hall will echo throughout this city for the next hundred years. Everything is at stake. On one side is our quality of life and our property values, on the other side is the political career of Kelly Seyarto and his hangers-on, including Rex Oliver, Lori Moss, Doug McAllister, and the recalled mayor who waiting in the wings. It will be a drastic uphill fight to keep the continuing condo and apartment tragedy from playing out in our commercial corridors. Seyarto, Moss and McAllister, and low-rung housing developers with their seedy attorneys are as determined as hell to see it through. This is going to get interesting.
    Been There

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 02, 2006 11:15:00 AM  

  • What rights do the residents have in stopping or having a say in how these areas are developed? Any? If the planning commission approves and the Council approves, what can we do? It seems Moss, another Chamber member is going to be the spokesmen pushing some of these agendas through, distancing Seyarto, McAlister and Stephenson. Using someone who is political development connected, but someone who is not connected to the recall per say.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 02, 2006 3:50:00 PM  

  • 3:50 Youre right. We're at the mercy of these jerks who don't give a **** about the town they are running.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 02, 2006 5:49:00 PM  

  • I was 5:49 and want to add that its obvious Moss is being used as a soft front for the KS agenda. We all see it happening but we cant do a thing about it.

    Starting to feel like we're watching the Titanic as it goes straight for the iceburg. What are these people thinking?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 02, 2006 6:01:00 PM  

  • I took a drive through our City Friday looking at all the things that were done right. Clinton Keith, at least the part that runs through sub-divisions was right, the two ends that connect to the freeways were not. The new High School and the subdivisons South I believe are done well, again minus the freeway connections. But getting to Murrieta Hot Springs, what an infrastructure nightmare. They are building along there as fast as they can, yet the road itself can't accomodate the traffic. Its the only east-west route except Winchester. Why didnt they surface the dirt road from Winchester along Los Alamos? Why isn't Clinton Keith completed before they throw thousands of homes in. Is the rush to build out Murrieta more important then the infrastructure.

    I went down to Old Town to see why commerical buildings and companies would want to "rush to build" as City Manager Moss implied was happening. I see a two story building going up and an urgent care on the corner but, where are the stores, antique shops that are suppose to line the streets? Would these business be RUSHING to build because the auto and foot traffic is so heavy to go to Plowboys, which was totally empty at 3pm, Joannies? The Shootist?? The Country Market?? The Dounut shop?? Or maybe it is the Windshield repair place or the Murrieta machine shop? I don't see this as an area that should have been built up. Why wasnt the money instead thrown into the commerical areas starting with Kalmia down to and past Walmart and on Jefferson to the West??? Why create a beautified Old town area, when that is not where tax dollars will be generated? It is smack dap in an area that will never see retail glory. How about the reverse side of the I-15? All along from the movie theatre to the Golden Triangle?

    Am I just missing this?? Is the Old Town area springing to life?? Is Joannies and the Country Market the "new" tax hope of Murrieta?

    From looking here, we are in for years of infrastructure building to support the maxing out of this city. Add some massive apartment complexes on the west side of the I-15 and we will swamp ourselves. Heck, we dont have storm sewers to support the drizzle we had yesterday. Jefferson was closed all afternoon to flooding. Shouldn't we have cleaned up that problem long before we dug up the streets of Old Town? It was just drizzling yesterday for Pete's sake.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 03, 2006 9:15:00 AM  

  • The recalled mayor vanHaaster has property in old town. He is right next to the funeral home. This was his town and he wanted to get his needs taken care of first. To Hell with the citizens....

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 03, 2006 4:30:00 PM  

  • If massive apartment complexes are a financial drag on the city (and they are), and if sales taxes from the new commercial construction in the corridor areas will be needed to pay for that financial drag (which according to L. Moss it will be), and if those revenues could have been used for the city as a whole for more amenities and higher quality infrastructure and greater public improvements if those apartments were not built (and they could be), and if greatly increased sales tax dollars would come from those same areas if quality commercial businesses were built instead of apartments (and those big tax $$$ would obviously come if apartments were not built), then just one question comes to mind: WHAT IS THE TRUE MOTIVATION OF CITY PLANNERS AND COUNCIL MEMBERS AND A MAYOR WHO WOULD VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE TO SCREW THIS CITY OVER BY BUILDING MASSIVE APARTMENT COMPLEXES IN OUR IMMENSELY VALUABLE COMMERCIAL CORRIDORS??? There's a very stinky smell coming out of Mayor Seyarto's office these days. It may well be that the source of that smell can be traced to the Mayor's fingers if they have been deeply involved in this apartment matter.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 03, 2006 7:10:00 PM  

  • I was just wondering. I may be mistaken but I think the state withholds funding if a city does not meet its affordable housing quota. If this is true then would it be more accurate to say that the State is shoving this down our throats and the local Politicians are forced to go along because of funding strings?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 03, 2006 9:09:00 PM  

  • Answer to Rhlmgren: In some circumstances, yes. But, never enough funds to offset the immense and permanent damage done to the local economy resulting from a permanent loss of obviously high potential tax revenue producing commercial land. The state would be just as happy in any circumstance if low rung housing were built in areas that were not prime commercial land. The larger question comes from the fact that political opportunity was present for current politicians who could benefit from the dual political benefit of state housing authorities who want to see such mass housing ASAP and mass housing developers who want to see profits ASAP. An unfortunate marriage of political and profit convenience which seems now almost inevitable across some of the most valuable commercial territory this town will ever see. This is OK for the politicians and the developers, but a major and (assuming it happens) irreversable fiscal tragedy for the city of Murrieta. Prime commercial land plain and simply cannot be duplicated.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 03, 2006 9:31:00 PM  

  • To right the unrightable wrong
    To be better far than you are
    To try when your arms are too weary
    To reach the unreachable star.

    This is my quest, to follow that star,
    No matter how hopeless, no matter how far
    To be willing to give when there's no more to give
    To be willing to die so that honor and justice may live
    - from The Impossible Dream -

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 04, 2006 6:46:00 AM  

  • It seems to me that the there is opposition to apartments in general. Most of high density that has been built and is to be built are not in the category of low income housing. I too am against these state mandated low income housing quotas. I am for market rate housing, and I am for the most part against state subsidized housing. I have seen the Section 8 complexes in other cities and they are pretty disgusting in general.
    Let's not confuse the State's mandates with good quality high density housing.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 04, 2006 9:17:00 AM  

  • Rholmgren, I am in 100% agreement with your 9:17 comments. There is evidence in every major city of the disaster left behind by taxpayer subsidized housing complexes. In Murrieta, the indirectly related tragedy that is unfolding is the fact that extremely high density complexes, which are notoriously irresistable to developers because of their artificially created profit potential, are in the process of being allowed on the very land this city could rely on as the backbone of its commercial district. This will not only be a direct tax reduction on that land, but will be a major discouragement to high tier commercial business developers of every kind who would otherwise be very interested in establishing a presence in our commercial corridor. The result will be an invisible but very real chain reaction of future sales tax erosion that this city will never be able to overcome. The currently pending apartment complex matters are of far more importance to the future economy of this city than any single controversial project that has ever been proposed to date. No other single issue that has ever come before this city has had as many ominous red flags of destructive potential as what is being cooked up right now at city hall. It is an economically poisonous brew we are about to be served. I'm starting to think Mayor Seyarto and his people are going to pull out all stops to force us to drink it. There is every indication that City Hall is now positioning itself to force this agenda through to completion. This is a public planning disaster in the making. I hope I'm wrong, but it looks to me like our elected, appointed, and hired city officials are about to fail us in a way that will do permanent harm. There is a slim chance this disaster can be delayed by the council majority, but the results of big campaign spending by mass housing development interests this year may make that delay futile.
    Been There

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 04, 2006 9:50:00 AM  

  • I think we had better start being more and more vocal now about the current Council/Chamber of Commerce/City Management connection. If we are ever going to enlighten this city to all this financial connections that will burden this city forver we need to speak up. I wrote a letter to the editor of the Californian and I think we need to stay on that subject and speak our minds. More will hear the message and reasoning will win out.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 04, 2006 10:49:00 AM  

  • Talk about hospitals.....Had my daughter at Rancho Springs ER last night and it was a disaster. Patients were lined up inside and outside of the ER main room. That is not quality of care for this community.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 04, 2006 11:31:00 AM  

  • Dear Jeff, Thank you for taking the time to send another letter to the newspaper. I'm not usually into the opinion section of the paper but I happened to read your first letter. Thank goodness for that. I wonder how many other readers are getting some education from the comments on this page. Anyway I am one. Does anyone know how many people in Murrieta click on to this page? I hope a lot. It could make a difference. "Just Me"

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 04, 2006 1:31:00 PM  

  • "If a large city can, after intense intellectual efforts, choose for its mayor a man who merely will not steal from it, we consider it a triumph of the suffrage."
    Frank Moore Colby

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 04, 2006 3:15:00 PM  

  • Just Me about 700 if we are lucky.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 04, 2006 10:17:00 PM  

  • So we are all complaining and writing. What can we do to take action? Can the action wait until November? No one has said.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:37:00 PM  

  • So we are all complaining and writing. What can we do to take action? Can the action wait until November? No one has said.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:38:00 PM  

  • To Jeff, concerned Murrietans cannot wait until next November. That's what the shadowy powers hope will happen. Here's why:

    If regular Murrietans do not get involved in helping to pick candidates to run for the City Council, they will only be able to vote among the opposition candidates on election day.

    Meanwhile, Dan S and the Chamber, backed by the developer money, will already have selected those ponies in their stable who will ride under their colors.

    We must have a citizens nominating process. I see this as operating something like RM's process last year.

    The word should go out that the residents are looking for council candidates who will pledge their fidelity to the long-term good and interest of our City. These candidates should eschew any support from the usual developer and Chamber organizational sources.

    In return, the City residents should pledge to mount a fund rasing campaign for the endorsed candidates AND, more importantly, organize a precinct by precinct get out the vote for those candidates selected. The Ballot Box Trumps the Bank Account.

    The residents should also include in their precinct work, an extensive absentee ballot voting campaign. Done correctly, we can assure our candidates victory even before the election day.

    Within the next few weeks, the beginning organizational efforts should be underway. It's not too early. Believe me, those who want to control our City are already at work.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:57:00 PM  

  • So Ed you know this is what I've been preaching for months, to beat the VanHaaster agenda. What are we going to do? We have been vocal and it is us that have raised the ire of the default Mayor and the other posters that they have sent to belittle us. What do people like you, Been There, JL Kunkle, Ton Suttle, Murrieta T, gottorun, MurrietanEyes, Just Me and I do to start this group. Every resident who cares should stand up.

    Maybe we can advertise this site in stores and fast food sites? We are not trying to stop those with different views from being heard, I love when they get on here and their logic makes little sense. That makes our cause that much stronger.

    How about a few signs or are they illegal to place on the street? In front of our own homes to advertise this site.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 05, 2006 4:32:00 PM  

  • Above posted by jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 05, 2006 4:33:00 PM  

  • I can't wait for this group to start. Let's get ready to rumble

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:34:00 PM  

  • One more thing: There is no way that a newly formed group will be allowed to hammer away at the agendas of others without revealing their own agendas. This new group had better be forthright with its agenda or it will lose credibility real fast.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:39:00 PM  

  • Mr. Rholmgren... It is easy for any of us to jump to conclusions. One such easy conclusion would be that we all disagree on this blog. But that is not true. There are a few things everyone has agreed on here, some of which don't appear to be high on the agenda at City Hall. I would like to suggest that you yourself suggest points of agenda for future candidates. I am sincere about this. Your own thoughts on a few issues have been stated in ways that I can get behind. At least one of these issues tends to be in agreement with Mr. Seyarto. And a couple of them go against his leanings. That being the case, I think you could be among the true consensus builders in this city. And that kind of person is what we really need in this town. As bellicose as you sometimes are, I could in spite of that get behind you as a candidate to replace someone like Mr. Seyarto. Because I think you are more sincere than he. You are someone who actually cares about the quality of life in Murrieta, and its future. Mr. Seyarto does not. You do not have a personal political ambition which puts Murrieta in the back seat. Mr. Seyarto does. I would vote for you on those points alone, although there are even more. If you choose to run, I guarantee you will have my vote, and as a private citizen I will be proud to donate to your campaign.
    Anon for Rholmgren

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 05, 2006 7:13:00 PM  

  • Thanks for the plug anon but I fully intend to support those who are the do'ers of our community and not the do nothing complainers. It may surprise you to learn than many of the things that are said on this blog are distortions of Mr. Seyarto's positions, and I would give them about as much credibility as those false news reports that were in many of the papers yesterday.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 05, 2006 8:14:00 PM  

  • Anon 7:13, you are a disgrace to the anon name. Rholmgren just got it right when he said Seyarto is doing this community. He's a "do'er" all right. Doing us good. As in shafting. Seyarto has said it himself, he is not representing the citizens of Murrieta. And he's proud that he can do that and still find enough ridiculous suckers to vote for him. He must laugh till his gut aches about that. His agenda is only for his own political advancement, with the wind of a dozen fat developer belches in his sails. Let Rholmgren be so he can get back to licking the boots of his hero. Someone has to try to make Murrieta's answer to Nero look good, and Rholmgren is the only guy on this blog who has the natural ability to stoop that low. Seyarto wins and we all lose. Including you, Mr. Rholmgren. Congratulations.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:20:00 PM  

  • gottorun,
    If you don't hate what is wrong, what is unethical, what is done for power and greed, what do you hate? You can see that the things that are happening today are not done for the good of Murrieta. If they are please defend that side so I can back off mine. Thats all I ever ask and all I get is they ARE doing things. What future plans are Seyarto, McAlister, VanHaaster doing that are far and above what other normal Councilmen wouldn't do? Throwing up a glitzy Golden Triangle is not over and above? My sons could figure that out. Tell me about the length of time it takes to build infrastructure, after the developers have already come in and made their millions.

    Complaining Roy??? Maybe you are blocked by your agenda as to what the true culture of our Founding Fathers, the true Americans was. They complained, they questioned, they fought back against overwhelming odds at the fundalmentalists. The Tories fought and sided with the King but our Founding Fathers spoke out against and questioned what they believed was not in their interests. They were rebels to the then agenda. We here too are speaking out, or as you call it complaining, because we see ethics issues. We see issues that could potentially damage our city. We are attempting to stand up to what we believe is the wrong way and what is more American then that????????? We want our tax money to be used properly. To be directed in the right way. I know you don't agree but we want these developers (lobbyists if you will) to not corrupt our city government and our city council by funnelling money for votes. That is the ethics we residents want to fight. So do nothing complainers????? No, we are doing what our culture has taught us and demands we do when we see issues. Maybe your ethics, agenda or culture has not trained you in the true American ways. Better think about it before you say rah rah again.

    Seyarto made his position quite clear and his posts remain for all to see. When asked why not ask a developer to come back another day so the Council could better understand the impact of what the developer wanted to do. His response was why should the developer lose money by waiting. Only someone worried about the financial backing of a developer would weigh the developers profit over a thoughtful decision by the Council. Is that not a clear enough picture for you??? Or does someone just have to be backed by the Republican party for you to defend him???? Does his comment that low income housing is important to Murrieta because all the young families are fleeing to Phoenix and Utah. That is just a misleading lie. Go to any store in this town and all there is are young families shopping. He brought a woman from the state to tell us just how low income housing will save Murrieta. WHAT??? Seyarto has one agenda. He is a default Mayor. He is a bully puppet of the C of C and the developers and soon they wont need him and they will all leave. But what they leave behind we may never recover from. But above all, don't we want an ethical and resident supporting government???


    We are seeing the paper trail from Ed Faunce's research. This isn't a made up story but he has connected the dots of unethical behavior. He has done the work and now we, as AMERICANS doing our duty need to demand the answers. And we get arrogance back. We get Councilmen playing games with positions to benefit themselves not this community. Roy, we don't need you or any agendas to do what is right and what is truly what being an American is about.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 7:26:00 AM  

  • Jeff,
    Your 7:26 entry is an excellent example of a well reasoned reply to Mr. Rholmgren or to anyone else who questions the concern many Murrietans have with the powers behind the thrones of Mr. Seyarto, vanHaaster, and some members of the planning commission and city administration. As a Republican, and a conservative, I want to express my appreciation to you and anyone else who states the case against the developer fueled candidates without turning it into a battle between political parties. Believe me, there are many more Republicans in this community than you think who are deeply opposed to the misuse of the party by housing development interests. Let us all keep the focus on what is best for our community, and denounce anyone (even major political leaders from outside our community) who would try to make this look like a party fight. If they succeed in making us fight between ourselves on that basis, we will lose the good fight. As someone said, our families and our property values and our quality of life is at stake. Murrieta indeed must change as it grows, but that change can be healthy or not. Jeff, people like you and a few other public spirited citizens are taking the time to say what needs to be said for the sake of Murrieta. We all owe you a debt of gratitude for that.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 8:14:00 AM  

  • Jeff it is pretty ironic that the founding fathers were among the richest of the people of the 13 colonies and yet they risked everything for freedom. During the war their properties were burned and in some cases their wives were raped and murdered and their children killed. These rich men risked all and yet today people like you vilify the rich and and overlook the sacrifices they made to get to where they are. To you they are people to be overtaxed so that the endless needs of the masses can be met.
    9:20 are you a moron? Does your IQ break the century mark? I was wondering because if you cannot plainly see Seyarto's accomplishments citywide you are either blind or a moron.Or maybe both.Can you or anyone else name the various citywide accomplishments of Mr. Seyarto's opposition? Can you come up with a list of all the glorious things that Mr. Enochs and Ostling have done around town? You would think that after serving on the council for so long that there would be a long resume of accomplishments. Name some please. Seyarto's opponents love to complain about problems citywide, and praise nothing, while their cupboard of accomplishments are a barren wasteland of wasted time and wasted opportunities. If the council opposition had been the council majority over the last 10 years we would have no new police station; no civic center site; no new high school; no Los Alamos sports park; No Jefferson or Murrieta Hot Springs improvements (to name a few). The westside would also have had a park now a the site of the old Bear Creek airport if Mr. Enochs in all his wisdom had voted to purchase it at the bargain price of around $400,000. At the time he said it was " too expensive." The council opposition thought these projects were too expensive at the time that they were voted on. In hindsight they were all a bargain. Murrieta saved tens of millions of dollars because of their timely approvals. The opposition has no vision and fears the future. Their voting record time and again proves it.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 8:42:00 AM  

  • 8:14 it is convenient to skapegoat developers for the communities ills. You will never hear these developer bashers chastise Caltrans or the state for their despicable record on funding and approving road projects in a timely manner. Also have any of these people criticized the county for the pace of the projects that are funded by the TUMF fee? There is at least 300 million of unspent funds there. Or has anyone thought of this scenario? What if the state had funded road projects over the last seven years as they were supposed to instead of stealing the funds and spending them on social programs? What would traffic be like if Caltrans was required to reduce approval times from a minimum of 21 months for a simple project and 10 years for a complicated project to 6 months and 3 years respectively? In general what if the state and county had done its job while the Development had occurred? Would people be complaining about traffic? Would people be complaining about developers? Developers are trying to meet the demand for housing in our area. Anyone that bashes their profit motive is anti capitalist. The blame for developments impact lies with the State and County. They have been irresponsible and unproductive with our tax dollars and it shows.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 9:02:00 AM  

  • Rholmgren you said to Jeff: ". . . the founding fathers were among the richest of the people of the 13 colonies and yet they risked everything for freedom."

    Sad, isn't it, that today our wealthy citizens do not continue in that tradition. The founding fathers did not risk because of their riches, they took risks because of their convictions.

    The issue facing our democratice instutitions today is to find the Statesmen(women) who, despite their desire to participate in America's riches, have an allegiance to America's ideals, e.g., equality (All men(people) are created equal), law (a nation governed by laws not people), and opportunity (the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness).

    We appear to have momentarily lost our way. In my judgment, this is due, in part, to the dominance of business interests in our governmental chambers. A government of, for and by the people cannot long survive when it is subordinated to narrow business interests only. Our dreams, aspirations and desires far exceed the profit and loss statements -- although profit and loss statements are definitely important to the all Americans.

    Our developers are immensely important to our community, but in their desire to make profit, they should not dominate our policy making bodies either directly or indirectly.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 9:59:00 AM  

  • You know I don't even blame developers Roy, they do what all businesses want to do, make as much money as possible with as little expenditure as possible. If I didnt care about ethics I'd probably invest millions into a City Council that would vote with them at every turn. It may be unethical but it's money in their pockets....see the WV mining accident. I blame the ethics behind those who gain backing from these Corporate groups and vote accordingly. These are people out of our community that we given our trust to. It's almost like we've been cheated on when this power has been abused. Aren't we witnessing that almost daily in government. We have just a little say in the Federal governemnt but today we have a much bigger say in our City.

    Rholmgren again, Seyarto and VanHaaster were not alone in making any decisions that brought good things here to this city. At last count we have a City Council of 5. And although recently they voted as a group of three, which just overstates the whole problem in a ball of wax. I say that because these three who are and were corrupted started voting away from the benefits of our City to the benefits of their financial backers, the development community. Power does corrupt. Thats where things went terribly wrong. So has Seyarto done nothing for the benefit of this community. No, of course not, he has been part of things that have been good here, but one unethical act when you are the guardian of my money and my welfare and you get no second chance. He acts this way with each comment and each vote he casts that doesnt benefit our town. Every instance of arrogance that he has thrown this town. Every belittling comment he makes takes him down another notch.

    But then again Roy, you and I both know the default Mayor thing was a joke and it was for personal gain and that should be this city's last straw, even for you Roy. But maybe ethics is what it is not about for you, maybe it is just the corrupt power, the do whatever it takes thing you like to see take over. Your comments just overlook all that is wrong in our world. We can be unethical sometimes and then have everyone overlook it but at the good we have done. It doesn't work that way in real life. If you have a great husband and he has taken care of his family his whole life, can you forgive him for cheating on that family, not once but over and over. If you can Roy, then we have a different set of ethics. I can't forgive even once.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 11:03:00 AM  

  • Well put Mr Faunce. I agree with abut 80% of what you said. Not too many people today are willing to risk their lives,their family's lives, and their personal wealth in order to promote their personal convictions for the betterment of all.I would have to say that the closest match today would be those serving in our military.
    Jeff your Mayor by default comment is pretty funny. In 4 or 5 months you will understand what happened. Right now you don't. ANd like I have always said Jeff stop accusing others of being corrupt unless you have proof to submit to the County DA. Otherwise your assertions of corruption are baseless. Also Jeff yes there were 5 people on the council when all of those decisions were made. But if the balance of power had been in Enoch's favor at the times that the decisions were made none of those items I listed would exist. NONE. Enochs and Ostling were just riding on the coatails of those that were actually accomplishing things around town. Mr Vanhaster himself put alot of personal time into some of those projects and purchases to make them a reality. The two useless members on the Council were just opponents to progress and proponents to nothing.
    Gottorun your post nails it perfectly! We all want quality! I want balance as far as project approvals go. Some people are against certain types of projects no matter where they are proposed. I have a question: I read recently that California's population is will increase by 75% in the next 20 years if only those that are born here stay here. ( I know that some will move but as of now most people that are born here do stay here) This number does not include people that will migrate here from other countries and states. The question is this: Can California house all of these new people by maintaining the same type of development format which is single family dwellings with a sprinkling of high density in the mix?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 12:29:00 PM  

  • Jeff you can bash the mining industry if you want to but keep in mind mining is extremely dangerous and that the U.S. fatality rate for mining has been falling steadily for years thanks to advances in safety equipment and procedures. If you want to bash a country about mining then China would be a good target. They lose thousands every year in mining accidents. I do not think that we have lost even a thousand in the last 30 or 40 years combined.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 12:47:00 PM  

  • First: Is there any reason to think that ANY controlling majority on the city council could NOT have achieved more in the time since vanHaster joined the council? No. In fact, the accomplishments are only modest considering the potential of this town.
    Second: Is there anything that can legitimately justify the perverting of community ethics in favor of the private agendas of certain councilmen and the developers who just happen to support them? No.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 1:27:00 PM  

  • Roy, I can't argue with someone who can't reason. I can't argue with you if you want to question things I say and then turn around and say that Seyarto and Van Haaster did things and have no proof. Where are the documents to back your claims that just Seyarto and VanHaaster did any of the things you claim, alone and that the other two rode their coat tails? If you don't use any reason in your views and everything has to be proven then I guess you come to conclusions like the mining industry is blameless and Americans should compare these deaths to China and be happy the mining industry doesnt let more die like in China. Is that your logic? Again look the other way because its another Corporation and we NEVER want to blame a corporation. How many violations did they have? LOL. You make no sense.

    Ed, this is exactly what I mean let them talk and senseless things spurt out. Next thing will be the belittling comments when they have no logical comeback. We want the Roy's of Murrieta to speak on here.

    Good question MurrietanEyes, Roy you defend Seyarto as if you were brothers, friends, cousins. It also shows no reason in your thoughts. How can you continually protect these crooks unless you are connected? Insider information.....oh maybe Kelly knocked on your door and told you something special. What is your secular job, I mean trade. Ed is a laywer, I am an Executive in the manufacturing industry, what industry are you in Roy?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 2:19:00 PM  

  • a friendly word to the wise for everyone using this blog site... there is reason to suspect that somebody or something (such as possibly a private investigating company) is making attempts to infiltrate the computers of people who make entries on this site. the reason for this kind of activity is not known, but some spyware-type intrusions have been detected by at least one site user that appear to have a relationship to this site's activity. there has in the past been a known relationship between certain political interests (and/or their supporters) in Murrieta city politics that have involved the use of private investigation companies. it is not yet known if these same interests are using computer intrusion techniques. please take the time to be sure your spyware and other protective measures are in place. if you do not have protective software installed on your computer please obtain and install one of the reputable brands of such software. consult your computer software dealer for advice if this subject area is unfamiliar to you. good night and good luck.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 4:00:00 PM  

  • Are they terrorists? Do they have WMD's? Thats all I want to know.

    Can we wiretap their calls?

    Maybe we should just drop a daisy cutter on them and torture the survivors.

    But first and foremost, everyone be afraid to post here!!!

    Is this the best Stephenson has?
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 4:52:00 PM  

  • Jefff (sic) it is funny how you are trying to reverse the arguement I have with you against me. I say do not accuse others of corruption without proof. You say do not crowe about Vanhaster's and Seyarto's accomplishments without proof. Jeff there is all kinds of proof about Vanhasters and Seyartos involvement in the projects and purchases that I touted in the previous post. Run a Nexus search and there will be all kinds of past news reports that will verify everything that I have told you. Now do me a favor: Since I pointed your nose at the proof that my statements were true: can you please point my nose in the direction that will lead to the proof that Seyarto and Vanhaster are crooks and are involved in Council corruption? Also you said: " I can't argue with someone who can't reason." Jeff you can only argue and agree with those that are irrational conspiracy theorists who react in a knee jerk emotional fashion. I can only argue with those who are rational and logical and you definitely do not fit that mold. Logic is the sgaure peg and you are the round "Lollypop" hole. Get it? I have no insider information about the Mayor situation . I have been reading the same papers and reading the same posts that you all have. I just have taken into consideration the last day that one can file for the Council election that's all.

    Jeff I never said that the mining industry is blameless. The mining industry in the U.S has been striving for years to improve the safety of its workers in an extremely dangerous occupation. The lower death numbers prove me out. I was just contrasting those numbers with China because China has done very little to improve the safety conditions that their miners work under and their death numbers also prove me right.It is impossible to remove all of the dangers from mining miles under the Earth. There are too many flammable gases involved and there is a constant danger of a cave-in. I wish there were a way to store extra oxygen near the workers in case there is a similar situation in the future, but the flammable properties of that element make the storage of it dangerous also.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 5:57:00 PM  

  • Jeff, We already know what kind of people they are. They never denied using intimidation during the recall campaign.

    They did not deny using private eyes to just to make decent people feel the discomfort of being spied on. The very concept clearly bothers good folks a lot more than it bothers profit minded political jerks. Seyarto was right out there defending the smarmy practice of using political spies when it was happening during the recall. What else can someone like him rely on?

    And what makes anyone think they'll stop now? If anything, it's going to get worse. We have to be ready and willing to take their abusive tactics.

    4:00 was right. Use spyware if you want. Don't use it if you want to get in their face. Be an anon or be a public name. All that matters is whether you are a good honest decent human being. Just tell the truth, and watch them squirm. That makes you stand ten feet taller than any Seyarto or VanHaster or anyone who hangs out in that crowd of people with "connections" who, because of mass housing development profits, can afford to hire strong armed filth intimidators.

    Of course people like Rholmgren will never have to worry. His chosen side is the one that resorts to thug tactics. He's home free.

    So, Rholmgren, lets hear more of your big talk, big man. Speak for your heros, because they've gone into hiding, just waiting for the paid campaign pros - and people like you - to do their dirty work.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 6:10:00 PM  

  • What's the biggie? If you don't already have antispyware (not 'spyware', 6:10) just get it. Everyone should have it. (Best Buy, Comp USA, etc.)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 7:18:00 PM  

  • 6:10 I am just an ordinary hard working Murrietan citizen. My "big man big talk" is no louder or more important that your opinion. I am just here to express an opposing view against those that want to harm this town to the detriment of others. I am not a thug nor am I here to do someone else's dirty work. I do remember that both sides used harsh tactics in the last election. There are very few clean hands around town. Those with clean hands are the apathetic.I do not believe in the tactic(s) that encourages the demonization of developers. It is a myopic and simplistic view that misrepresents the causes of the communities ills, and I do not buy that line of bull. People with hidden agendas are pushing their anti developer propaganda and small minded people are believing it including you.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Friday, January 06, 2006 7:36:00 PM  

  • I observe that Rholmgren takes a lot of heat in this blog, where the other main proponents exited this hot kitchen long ago. The fact that he can take the heat and can construct meaningful arguements in the midst of the fight is something I respect. There are a few points on which I agree with Rholmgren. And there are a few points on which I disagree. But I would not know his point of view if he did not have the courage to present it.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:48:00 AM  

  • I have participated on this blog from its inception and have come to appreciate the fact that Rholmgren is absolutely essential to a vigorous debate. Although Rholmgren may appear to be a minority voice on the blog, his viewpoints are important to examine in our discussions.

    Imagine how boring this conversation would be without him! I have consistently suggested that he, and others as well, dispense with the personal derogatory comments, but to keep saying what he believes.

    Let's all raise a glass to the First Amendment and keep the conversation lively.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:11:00 AM  

  • To Gottorun who said: "If you were driving somewhere and got lost you would not analyze over and over again how you got lost, you would figure out how to get to where you need to be!"

    Good point because it emphasizes corrective action.

    But analogies always tend to breakdown at the margins. Murrietans are not lost, they have been misled, in my judgment. That's why I have been trying to "connect the dots" to understand just who (individuals and organizations) are responsible for misleading this community. Once we have connected all those dots, we know what to avoid in order to "get back on track."

    Now, Rholmgren has said that some of those persons identified have done good for the City. Agreed, but they may also have been responsible for deflecting some parts of City growth so that we are going to get off course.

    I think its important not to demonize council members, developers, or organizations, e.g., the Chamber of Comm., just because we disagree with the direction they are headed. After all, our capitalistic system depends on people acting in their own self-interest in order to produce the goods and services the population desires.

    But at the same time, we have learned that we need checks and balances to keep any particular segment of our system from becoming too dominant to our detriment.

    That's why the discussions taking place on this blog are so important. We are all looking at the reasons we got off the route so that we won't make that mistake again.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:30:00 AM  

  • Well said again Mr. Faunce. Iwas still wondering if anyone would answer my question from above about whether Califonia's current development format will be able to house the 25 million or so extra citizens that will be living here in the next 20 or 25 years. I know it is not a purely Murrieta issue but it does tie in to the style of development that occurs here.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:42:00 AM  

  • Wow, he's back in all is typical arrogance. Shut up world, drop your opinions and questions because only I know the answers. So Mr.(default) Mayor, that is what they call it when someone is given something that another has rejected. Here is my opinion and it follows all that you posted about Mayor Enochs a few months ago. You work for me as I pay taxes and as I have the right of freedom of speech, you are unethical in your dealing as a City Council member. Here are a few examples.

    You came online a few months ago and stated thathe then Mayor Enochs was doing unethical things, alludingto the fact that his vehicle was seen where NO RECALL signs were missing? Did you not Mr Mayor?

    You also alluded to the fact that Enochs had been unethical in stating the size of his home for tax purposes and this was another example of his lack of ethics? Did you not Mr Mayor?

    You said outright that I should come down to your office and you would enlighten me on his ethics problems. Did you not Mr. Mayor?

    You called me names like a little girl when I questioned the things you have done. Did you not Mr. Mayor? Is that what a man with the responsibility of public trust should be doing?????

    You arrogantly attacked others on this site, even attacking their performances on their "non-public" jobs. Did you not Mr. Mayor?

    You stood behind a man who later when he was caught in his arrogance and ethics problems admitted to it. Yet you told the people of this community in essense to shut up. You went on here and further backed this man and defended what state officials stated were at best borderline ethics. Did you not Mr. Mayor?

    You have since voted in the Council against a raise, not because it was your belief as by law you are required to vote with, but to be vindictive. What kind of representation is that, Mr. Mayor? Were you serving your constituates or yourself Mr Mayor?

    You posted on this site that Ostling, Enochs and Gibbs were not Counilmen of quality. Is that the ethics of a quality Councilman or even the ethics of a comman man? Well Mr. Mayor?

    You stated on here that the recall election didn't cost you a cent. Well I guess not because you were backed by 20 times the money by the development community. Is this not true Mr. Mayor?

    On this blog when asked why you wouldn't vote to delay a Council decision you were asked if it wasn't better to make the Developer wait so a proper "City" decision could be made, one that benefited the residents and you said no, that you didn't want it to cost the developer anymore money. Who's side would it appear you are on Mr. Mayor? The side of this cities finances or that of the developers profit?

    When Councilman Gibbs stated that The Alexander Community complex was a "slum", even if it fit within the guidelines of our city, who's side did you vote with Mr. Mayor? Since you are not a judge wouldn't you want the very best for us or did you want the best for the developer?

    Then you stand up a few weeks ago and "plan" this default Mayor thing. Do you think we are blind? If McAlister does not want to be Mayor now, he should never be Mayor...ever. Even when something is legal, and strings are pulled and smoke is blown it doesn't mean it's ethical. You Mr. Mayor are unethical and this dog and pony show is unethical.

    Now you come on here and threaten me to shut up or risk a lawsuit. This is very typical of unethical politicians. Stop your opinions or I'll sue you. What kind of neighbor are you to ALL of us?

    My opinions are based on your performance, your actions, the actions of others that work in conjunction with you. They are based on logic and reasoning. We residents have the right to challenge and question your motives and have opinions about your activity. As long as things look underhanded, they most likely are. Again an opinion that I have a right to. Or do you want to take that from me???????

    We have to protect ourselves today from politicians that seek to silence us so they can run amuck. I don't think you have taken any cash, I can't state that is asopinion. But isn't it a fact that every dollar that stays in your pocket while a public servant and not spent campaigning is a dollar saved?

    But then again our Mayor is allowed to say what my opinion is. Corporate America. I work for Corporate America and intimately know it's goals and desires. Like I said, it wants as much money as it can get with as little expenditure as possible. I understand our Capitalist system well. That's why we have a City Council and City Management. To protect us from the goals and desires of the Corporate world. You are the police of that marriage. If the Corporate world spends 20 times the amount for your re-election it did so with ONE GOAL in mind. To make money. So why, using all the reason and logic you can muster, did the Corporate world spend 600K on you NOT being recalled????????? Lets see...because your wife makes the best brownies?? Or because you are such a pleasant guy they just love your smile??? Or because they know they have your vote??? Lets ask some 5th graders the answer to this.

    You may think what Nancy Knight said about Dougie as mean? Was it a lie?? Was what you tried to do to Mayor Enochs? Your arrogance lights up the sky with each post.

    You will come back as always and say all Jeff says is a rehash of what he has said before. Thats correct but more people join this site everyday. They have not all heard the truth. You have been alive and well on this site for a long time.

    We residents have to now protect ourselves. We have heard the responses of other politicians caught up in monies from lobbyists and Corporations and see the same. We are seeing the tall trees fall in our faces and it makes us afraid of arrongance, of threats, of our civil liberties, you know the ones that I will use today and forever.

    So residents here is your Mayor, threatening a blogger to his right to state his opinion because it questions the performance of a politician who holds public trust. If I should shut up, if i dont have the right to my opinion what did I fight for? If you want to see how other politicians of all parties are acting, goggle Jack Abramoff. Read the articles of how politicians votes are bought. Read the reactions of politicians like Duke Cunningham when questioned about what logic and reason suggest and compare it to here. Then come back and tell me how wrong I am.

    To Roy, come on here and tell me why you think OJ and Michael Jackson are guilty. By our judicial system they are innocent. But what does your logic and reasoning tell you. Enough said.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:58:00 PM  

  • Kelly,
    Here is a link to slander and libel and how the Supreme Court has views on the publics opinions as to public officials. I believe everything I write in my opinion as fact and if proved wrong would surely withdraw them. It's the same reasoning I got from the City attorney on your statements toward Mayor Enochs, as Councilman Gibbs stated. Except you are in the public trust and your opinions are the direction this city goes, mine are just my own?? Right??
    http://law.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/89977
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:49:00 PM  

  • Just a word of my own personal appreciation to everyone who provides well reasoned commentary in this forum. It is no secret that I am a person who has not always agreed with Mayor/Councilman Seyarto, but I will agree that nobody benefits when harsh speculation is represented as absolute fact. Even if a writer considers speculation to be backed up by logic or common sense, it remains speculation until it is completely beyond dispute. It weakens arguments when they contain specific and inflammatory assertions that lack a fully visible foundation. There is never a need to go there. Ideas can be presented in ways that fully make their point without making the writer’s credibility appear strained.

    Now, please allow me a brief personal note, but as I mentioned in an earlier entry, the buildout direction that my home street of Jefferson Avenue is taking is such that it will probably cause me to sell my Murrieta home. My property has been a wonderful place to live, and I have wonderful neighbors. But the noise and traffic here are growing by the week. At one time my house was a true country home where my grandkids could run around the acreage. But not any more. Way too many fast cars now. Not a good neighborhood for kids. But I won’t complain. With all that traffic, Jefferson Avenue commercial area properties like mine are becoming very, very valuable. If the proposed big apartment complex goes in across the street from my land, that will bring lots of commercial spending power to the street. If it goes all commercial, that will be an equal commercial plus of another kind. My land value wins either way. That’s true no matter who is in office, so I don’t have a financial or political dog in this apartment dispute that seems to be brewing.. But as I said when the reporter for the Californian called me for a comment a couple months back, the only thing I wonder about is how safe or fair it would be for all the kids who would be living in those apartments. If I can’t feel good about my own grandkids running around my house 300 feet from Jefferson when they come to visit, how can I feel good about anyone’s kids living in apartments right next to this very busy section of Jefferson Avenue? From what I’ve heard, the traffic is going to get almost like a freeway along here. That’s really great for business property, but a really awful place for little kids to call “home”. If I don’t at least mention this now, how am I going to feel if small children start getting hurt when they wander out of their apartments into that huge volume of traffic?

    But that’s enough about my concerns. While I’m writing, I just want to tell everyone who adds their thoughts to this forum how much I personally appreciate reading what all of you have to say. Can’t say I always agree with anyone, but it sure gets interesting from time to time. If there’s one thing I’m sure of, it’s that local political forums like this one are here to stay in Murrieta, and I think eventually everywhere else too.

    Tom Suttle

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:58:00 PM  

  • Murrieta eyes, why the sarcasm " wizard Kelly" ? After everything that has been published attacking Kelly I thought it was about time he took a stand and fired back. If you and Jeff can't admit to that, than you are smaller persons than I thought. You spinmeisters go off on your tantrums and don't admit that KS has a right to present his side. He was treated rudely in the past and is again, because you don't want to hear that anything might go well and right in our City! How sad! Yes I know, Kelly has been rude in the past, but he has admitted that he has to work on his people skills. I think that Ed F., Murrieta eyes, Jeff and a few anons are out of control with their gossip and I will do all I can to discourage anyone from reading this blog. Perhaps some public apologies by them are in order! If I am to join anyone in working for the good of our city, it will not be with some of the bloggers who are so pumped up and full of themselves, thinking they know it all! A blogger asked before: Has anybody sat down with council men and city leaders to discuss your concerns? Complaining, attacking and throwing suspicion seem to be the mode of operation. None of you, with your bias, are qualified to lead a group or heaven forbid, sit on the council!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:01:00 PM  

  • Councilman Seyarto, I have some responses to your post. First, it was good to hear from you again. We kind of missed the Seyarto “spice” – if you know what I mean.

    Second, the Murrieta Old Town project – you said that you want to encourage businesses to eventually go there for a “nice place to spend with our families.” Surely you jest. The point that Jeff, and others, were making is that a very large sum of money was spent on Old Town and nearly killed it in the process. But Murrietans don’t see much there to which they would like to spend time with their families.

    Third, you said that “here are no plans to take valuable commercial land and turn it into massive low income apartments.” Hmmm, I just photocopied the City development file for a 400 unit apartment complex right off the corner of Jefferson and Murrieta Hot Springs Road. It looks like this complex is being shoehorned in between commercial developments. And wasn’t our City Manager just quoted as saying that the new businesses expected in the Town Square area would provide tax revenues to fund the increasing services required by apartments and condos, i.e., high population density development? I think that’s what she said, what do you think?

    Fourth, you have formerly said that Murrieta needs to provide a range of housing including low income apartments. But it was suggested to you that you were actually engaging in social engineering. Remember? But of course, your desire to be a social engineer will cost the home owners of this City dearly – lower property values, siphoning of tax revenues to provide services to high density development, over crowded schools with the requirement of bonding to build more schools, gridlocked City streets, etc. etc. So, we wonder, why would a member of our City Council so eagerly embrace a development program that has so many negatives for the community. Let’s see who benefits? Why the developers, who just happen to be your supporters. And maybe, just maybe, there is a nice appointment to some State Commission at a handsome salary down the road for a council man who has subordinated his constituencys’ desire for the greater need of the State officials? Oh now don’t get all enraged over this speculation. Remember we are simply trying to figure out what motivates your decision making.

    Fifth, you think that criticizing corporations is nearly tantamont to treason. Surely you must be aware of the enormous debate going on all over the USA, and even world wide, about the need to restrain the use of corporate money because it is destroying the right of the people to petition their governments for redress. You see, when business giving swamps the moneys collected from the citizens, then the businesses are granted easy access and that access diminishes the access citizens have to government.

    You have adopted a “black or white” approach, the old “America, love it or leave it” fallacy in an attempt to quiet the critique that the developers and business community in Murrieta HAVE TOO MUCH ACCESS TO OUR LOCAL GOVERNMENTS. It’s not that we villinize corporations, it is that we do not want them buying easy access to our policy making government bodies. It is not an “either or” discussion.

    Read what I posted earlier today before you posted. I said we need developers, good developers, but we don’t want them to dominate our local political scene.

    It’s politicians with attitudes like those you expressed that lead to the very evil we want to avoid. Our City Council must not be a corporate lap dog, a boot-licking groveling syncophant to the Stephenson led developer Cabal and his Chamber of Commerce.

    $600K is what these out-of-the-area developers spent to keep you in office. Don’t you think that Murrietans might just wonder what “return on that investment” those developers’ want? Look what Alexander Communities just did to this City. They sued three council members alleging that they were being unfair because they supported the recall. But instead of closing ranks and protecting our City from this corporate legal stick-up, you and McAllister supported them. Return on investment?

    Sixth, you said that “Ed, . . .should be smarter than” to suppose clandestine relationships between the Chamber, Dan Stephenson, the Riverside County Republican Party, and councilmen Seyarto, McAllister and recalled councilman van Haaster. But it’s not a clandestine relationship. Its right out in the open!

    So your comment about how “smart” I should be is best answered by asking: “Just how dumb do y’all think Murrietans are?”

    Seventh, you tried to play the “shame game” – by asking how could we continue to discuss the City’s problems at the time of Fire Chief Armentrout’s death.

    You know Kelly, Chief Armentrout would have supported us. He alone showed his true character during the recall. I have never publicly told this story before, but it’s appropriate now.

    During the recall, the developers sent out a multi-page glossy hit piece saying “No on Recall” which included the names of every organization they could think of including the Murrieta City Police Department and the Murrieta City Fire Department.

    I personally sent a letter to both the Chief of Police and to Fire Chief Armentrout complaining about the use of the City’s name on the hit piece. I received a personal letter from Chief Armentrout saying he was sorry for the use of his Department’s name, he apologized and said that he had ordered his Department’s name off of any future No on Recall literature.

    Similar complaints to the City Council, i.e. van Haaster, Seyarto and McAllister, by many residents concerning the tactics of Stephenson’s developer group were met with a whining explanation that you were not in charge of what others did.

    So, yes, we honor Chief Armentrout because he was a giant among children. He stood so much taller than you and your council comrades that his death saddens me tremendously.

    And in his honor, I pledge to continue trying to understand the dynamics which drive decision-making in my City.

    And, as you asked Jeff, we ask, “Got it!”

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 5:06:00 PM  

  • Jeff I read your last post and the only thing that came to mind as I finished reading it was a quote from Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does. Jeff you are wasting your intellect and pursueing shadows of conspiracies that are not there. Maybe I should turn one of your arguments against you and vilify you as an executive of an evil corporation. No I am sorry Jeff I can't bring myself to make the same lame proofless arguements that you do. Can you please point my nose toward the proof of coruption Jeff? It's a simple question. You have an answer for everything else and surely you have real tangible proof to back up all of you assertions that Councilmembers are criminals and are being bribed. I know you have a video or a recording somewhere Jeff! Come on cough it up!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 5:07:00 PM  

  • Councilman Seyarto, I have some responses to your post. First, it was good to hear from you again. We kind of missed the Seyarto “spice” – if you know what I mean.

    Second, the Murrieta Old Town project – you said that you want to encourage businesses to eventually go there for a “nice place to spend with our families.” Surely you jest. The point that Jeff, and others, were making is that a very large sum of money was spent on Old Town and nearly killed it in the process. But Murrietans don’t see much there for spending family time.

    Third, you said that “here are no plans to take valuable commercial land and turn it into massive low income apartments.” Hmmm, I just photocopied the City development file for a 400 unit apartment complex right off the corner of Jefferson and Murrieta Hot Springs Road. It looks like this complex is being shoe horned in between commercial developments.

    And wasn’t our City Manager just quoted as saying that the new businesses expected in the Town Square area would provide tax revenues to fund the increasing services required by apartments and condos, i.e., high population density development? I think that’s what she said, what do you think?

    Fourth, you formerly said that Murrieta needs to provide a range of housing – including low income apartments. But it was suggested that you were actually engaging in social engineering. Remember?

    But your social engineering will cost the home owners of this City dearly – lower property values, siphoning of tax revenues to provide services to high density development, over crowded schools with the requirement of bonding to build more schools, gridlocked City streets, etc. etc.

    So, we wonder, why would a member of our City Council so eagerly embrace a development program that has so many negatives for the community? Let’s see, who benefits? Why the developers, who just happen to be your supporters. And maybe, just maybe, there is a nice appointment to some State Commission at a handsome salary down the road for a council man who has supported the need of the State officials for low cost housing? Oh now don’t get all enraged over this speculation. Remember we are simply trying to figure out what motivates your decision making.

    Fifth, you think that criticizing corporations is nearly tantamont to treason. Are you unaware of the debate occurring world wide, concerning the need to restrain the use of corporate money in politics because it is destroying the right of the people to petition their governments for redress. You see, when business contributions swamp the moneys collected from the citizens, then the businesses are granted easy access to the policy makers. That business access diminishes the access citizens then have to their governments.

    You have adopted a “black or white” approach, the old “America, love it or leave it” fallacy in an attempt to quiet the critique that the developers and business community in Murrieta HAVE TOO MUCH ACCESS TO OUR LOCAL GOVERNMENTS. It’s not that we villainize corporations, it is that we do not want them buying easy access to our policy making government bodies. It is not an “either or” discussion. Read what I posted earlier today before you posted. I said we need developers, good developers, but we don’t want them to dominate our local political scene.

    It’s politicians with attitudes, like those you expressed, that lead to the very evil we want to avoid. Our City Council must not be a corporate lap-dog, a boot-licking groveling syncophant to the Stephenson-led developer cabal and his Chamber of Commerce.

    $600K is what these out-of-the-area developers spent to keep you in office. Don’t you think that Murrietans might just wonder what “return on that investment” those developers’ want? Look at what Alexander Communities just did to this City. They sued three council members alleging that they were being unfair because they supported the recall. But instead of closing ranks and protecting our City from this corporate legal stick-up, you and McAllister supported them. Return on investment?

    Sixth, you said that “Ed, . . .should be smarter than” to suppose clandestine relationships between the Chamber, Dan Stephenson, the Riverside County Republican Party, and councilmen Seyarto, McAllister and recalled councilman van Haaster. But it’s not a clandestine relationship. Its right out in the open!

    So your comment about how “smart” I should be is best answered by asking: “Just how dumb do y’all think Murrietans are?”

    Seventh, you tried to play the “shame game” – by asking how could we continue to discuss the City’s problems at the time of Fire Chief Armentrout’s death.

    You know Kelly, Chief Armentrout would have supported us. He was the one City Official who showed real character during the recall. I have never publicly told this story before, but it’s appropriate now.

    During the recall, the developers sent out a multi-page glossy hit piece saying “No on Recall” which included the names of every organization they could think of including the Murrieta City Police Department and the Murrieta City Fire Department.

    I personally sent a letter to both the Chief of Police and to Fire Chief Armentrout complaining about the use of the City’s name on the hit piece. I received a personal letter from Chief Armentrout saying he was sorry for the use of his Department’s name, he apologized and said that he had ordered his Department’s name off of any future “No on Recall” literature.

    Similar complaints to the City Council, i.e. van Haaster, Seyarto and McAllister, by many residents concerning the tactics of Stephenson’s developer group were met with a whining explanation that you were not in charge of what others did.

    So, yes, we honor Chief Armentrout because he was a giant among children. He stood so much taller than you and your council comrades that his death saddens me tremendously.

    And in his honor, I pledge to continue trying to understand the dynamics which drive decision-making in my City.

    And, as you asked Jeff, “Got it?”

    Edward Faunce

    PS: Kelly, remember when I asked if anyone had information of Councilman McAllister’s career change and you said “why don’t you ask him?” Well we have followed up on that question. I will be sending Mr. Joe Kunkle a report to publish on this blog which will continue to “connect the dots” showing the connections between the developers and another one of our council members. Stay tuned.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 5:34:00 PM  

  • To All, I apologize for the double posting of my response to Kelly.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 5:38:00 PM  

  • Yeah Mr. Faunce I was sensing a little deja vu there for a second.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:06:00 PM  

  • Roy, its as always. I asked about the OJ and Jackson guilt. What do you believe to be true? Did they commit crimes they were charged with in your reasonable estimation?
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:28:00 PM  

  • I am not really sure about O.J but I did find it strange the MJ had an adult alarm leading to his bedroom. It is also strange that Jackson now lives in a country that may condone relationships between men and boys. That is about as far as I will take this. I know where you are trying to lead this so do not even bother trying to make your point.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:38:00 PM  

  • Roy, When you see that my point is correct you shy from answering, knowing if you do I will be correct. It makes your point for needing a video tape or a recording moot. To see unethical behavior we don't need a tape.

    Isn't it terrible when everything that you believe in is falling apart and the only thing you can do is be defensive every day. It's like what ignorant thing will I have to defend tomorrow? Who will be next to be caught? Too bad you have to always be backing up. Who will get caught tomorrow? It's the same here. Jeff...I remember you saying......they are not guilty until proven guilty......they keep falling as I said they would. Who would that make the stupid one?
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:58:00 PM  

  • No Jeff I do not like playing the childish hypothetical game. Each case to me is separate and trying to compare scenarios is like trying to compare apples and oranges. Go gloat if you want to a your percieved brilliance. What is fallng apart Jeff and what am I defending? I am on the offensive Jefff (sic) and it is you that is falling apart. Answering questions with questions is a circular pattern. If you want me to stop being evasive then answer my questions first and I will answer yours in kind.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:12:00 PM  

  • Childish hypothetical game? Using your reasoning ability and logic when determining if something isn't kosher? So to decide anything in your life, you have to have specific proof in front of you? Is that really how you see things? WOW.

    You're on the offensive? What the KS thing is your offensive? Supporting his apartment developments? I have a post here where you claimed you were against high density south of Ivy. Did you change your mind? If you are against it, why havent we heard you asking the default Mayor about it? Why havent you been questioning the logic of it here? It should be your highest priority if you want the best for Murrieta??? But maybe you dont?

    Your ideology Roy.....thats what Im talking about. Theres your answer. Wheres the answer about the industry that you work in. Off to see a movie.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:38:00 PM  

  • Jeff there are criminals on both sides Dems and Repubs. The difference is that Republicans want those commiting crimes to be in prison. We all turned on Cunningham when he admitted guilt.We will not back up our friends and leaders if they are guilty. The Dems however are dispicable. They will continue to defend their criminal leaders and make excuses for their behavior. When was the last time that you saw a Dem condemn a Dem for bad behavior or a criminal conviction?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:47:00 PM  

  • I was on the offensive before the KS post Jeff. I stand here on my own Jeff. I do not need a bunch of anons or KS here to cheerlead me or pat me on the back and say good boy.( You have so many of those on your side Jeff!)I said a while back that I am not here to toot my own personal horn. So Jeff that is my answer about my occupation. Oh by the way I like the way you tried to simplify the trade question for me. I guess I would not have understood the first half of it otherwise right? Jeff you try to apply logic in a twisted way that defies common sense. It is in the style of Oliver Stone and Micheal Moorer. Remember their movies? Do you think that by stringing together facts and then mixing in a little false conjecture automatically creates a realistic version of the truth? It sort of reminds me of the Soviet propaganda machine from the 70's and 80's that based news reports on the truth but then twisted and tweaked things here and there in order to conform with the Communist ideology. In the end the stories were complete lies based on the truth. Another local parallel would be ME I mean Nancy Knight's paper The Murrieta Pravda. Have you followed her wacko assertions of voter fraud? A little truth mixed with false conjecture equals ME's assertions.Jeff I do not blindly follow my ideology or take marching orders. If anyone in my party is on the take and corrupt and/or is involved in other types of criminal behavior I want their asses prosecuted and, if found guilty, incarcerated. Do you wish for the same for members of your party who are corrupt? The trend as of late is to try the Republicans in the media for their crimes and excuse the behavior of Democrats when their hand is caught in the cookie jar. The double standard makes me sick.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:16:00 PM  

  • Oh and I forgot Jeff I am still for no more apartments south of Ivey and east of Jefferson. I have never said otherwise. I have listened to Mr Faunces arguments and ther is merit to some of them. At this point I would have to say we should take on each apartment complex on a case by case basis. And as I have said before it would help if there was a clarification of where and how many apartment units,or high density, will exist at buildout. Time to head out for the night.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:24:00 PM  

  • Roy,
    I have no idea what you do and was trying to see how "connected" you are to your posts. If you are in real estate or work for a developer it would be easy to see your bias.

    I see you have jumped on the Seyarto bandwagon about MurrietanEyes. She said she wasn't Nancy Knight. Here again is an accusation without first hand knowledge. Do you have a video tape??? Or a recording or are you making up things you don't know?? I guess thats OK if you are "connected" to Kelly, he thinks its OK but blows a gasket when the presumed truth is said about him.

    Here are your assertions of high level corruption in the Democratic or liberal party. What are the names of these fiends and what do you know. I will be glad to include any unethical politician in my posts. The only names that I have seen connected to ethic violations are Cunningham (admitted), Libby (indicted), Delay (indicted, stepped down from his leadership role), Frist (investigated by the FCC ongoing), Rove (investigated by Fitzgerald ongoing), Ney (Rep fingered by Abramoff directly and soon to be indicted), Bob Taft (Ohio govenor indicted). Who are these corrupt leading Democrats, that have been indicted or are close. They should be hung too.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:37:00 PM  

  • Kelly, (Mr. Mayor sir/ may I speak sir)
    We were thinking of something to do tonight as a family and were wondering what you could recommend we do in Old Town. We've been to the Mill, but we wanted to get out of our car because we figure all the NEW parking places would be taken and walk down Ivy. Kids dont drink so Joannie's is out and they don't carry pistols so we don't get robbed so the Shootist is also out? I guess we could shop at the Country Market but I was thinking that the huge crowd down there thats luring jobs and businesses might crowd us out.

    Is Jack's business open, we could get some accounting done. Maybe we could figure how many young families are fleeing Murrieta for Phoenix? Oh, no, I don't need Jack for that, I can count that on my one hand.

    And the kids can't get wet anymore since the waters dried out after only 10 years. Oh, I hope it doesn't drizzle because Jefferson might get washed out. Great job on that one.....ever hear of storm sewers?

    You know, the construction crews here in Southern California have it so rough, we had a wet winter didn't we causing mammouth delays. My gosh I bet those Midwestern Construction crews, where it rains and snows 135 days a year would hate to work here, never mind below 30 degree weather 4 months a year. We really do have it rough here with our heavy pounding drizzle.

    Oh and I really wanted to say how wrong I was in belittling you and not attacking Enochs and Ostling too for the mess our city is in because I give them credit for your successes. So Enochs and Ostling, you guys are worthless too. BUT WAIT. Lets look at the voting on issues that helped mess up this town. VanHaaster, Seyarto and McAlister (or other weak yes men hand picked) 3; Enochs and Ostling 2. hummm. 3 to 2. I guess I have to give the credit for the mess in this city to the Councilmen in the voting block of 3.

    Unbelieveable. Please keep posting on here and speading your arrogant self promoting opinion. Remember I am just a guy that you work for.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:01:00 PM  

  • Jeff you and I must live in alternative universes. Your Murrieta is a messed up city full of corruption. My Murrieta is a wonderful place to live. It even feels better when I leave here for other So Cal areas and come back. Do yourself a favor and beam back to this side. The sun is shining on my side. Leave the dark side Jeff.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:39:00 PM  

  • Roy, then why aren't each of your posts full of happiness and glowing reports of new adventures? If I read back on yours I see alot deep aggression, anger and dispair. You said that a party in our government was dispicable, did you not in one of your last posts and then alluded my stupidity. Not a post full of sunshine and happiness is it now. Stop painting me unhappy. My Murrieta home is wonderful, but I want to keep it that way. I protect my neighbors and family with my posts. This blog is not full of joy and happiness but it is a public forum. Are you the same guy that told all of us to buck up on here as you belittled us???? Called us names and then you come on here and say why aren't I talking like Suzie Sunshine? Read all your posts going back. In every way you try and detour the comments away to portray anyone with opposing opinions on default Mayor Seyarto. This blog is for complaining and questioning our City. I never expect perfection but I do demand ethical behavior.

    I have driven through surrounding communities many times, and I don't want some of those communities repeated here. But if you read another post I made above I complemented many things as I drove our city, why isnt that metioned????

    You continue to blind yourself and others to unethical behavior, too bad. But it isnt me that did the amazing work connecting the dots on potential corruption and positive conspiracy. But there is a fear of you attacking him because he is full of far more facts then I. Ed is doing a phenominal job investigating and I am excited at his future investigation. The more he digs, the more ethics problems are discovered.

    You also never answer....did you not state that you don't support high density south of Ivy?? You also didnt answer your assertions that Democrats are just white washing their brotheren.

    Seems they were major issues in your posts and then POFF...they disappear.

    So jump on our band wagon about this 400+ apartment complex that is planned in a very commerical area and.....look its south of Ivy. Your hero is pushing it....I thought it didnt matter, if it hurts Murrieta you will be the first one to defend our great City. Stand up and follow through. Or does that violate the ideology???
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:22:00 PM  

  • When did Mr. Seyarto publicly say that he was for those apartments? Jeff anger, aggression and despair? Believe me Jeff if your feet were in my shoes you would never want to take them off. I have a gorgeous wife and kids that are so smart and charming that I never want to be away from them. It's all I need and it's all anyone should ever wish for. Trust me you are definitely reading me the wrong way. Proof again that you reside in a different universe.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, January 08, 2006 12:51:00 AM  

  • Roy, it's great and family doesn't really belong here. Im sure yours is amazing as is mine and I know Kelly has an amazing family and is a good family man.

    Go back and read some of your comments. Punching people in the face for their beliefs, aggression toward people, name calling, not pretty happy stuff. Others will tell you also. We are neighbors and I know we have the same goals in mind to make this city the best it can be and I'm sure there are things that we can agree on and push for. I just want to push the process and I dont have anything to defend except getting the utmost out of our City government. I attack anyone who is unethical and dont have allegence to any agenda. I truly don't think our city government has it's current residents as it's highest priority. I think that it has other INTERESTS pushed ahead of us.

    So Kelly since you are talking to us again and want your opinions listened to, what is your take on the apartment complexes planned south of Ivy, especially the ones at MHS and Jefferson?

    Now Roy, I would have to think if he does side for them, you will be as passionate against his stand as you are against other supposed agendas? Am I right?

    Oh and my universe thinks OJ was guilty. Still no answers on who the protected Dems are?
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:16:00 AM  

  • Jeff family belongs anywhere I choose to put it. The only thing that I think is off limits here are personal attacks against the family. As for my attacks Jeff I was in more of an attack mode then because the blog was harsher back then I have backed off since and moved on.I do not see much of a need to currently sink into the trenches and fight gutter warfare since most others here have toned things down too. When in Rome Jeff Get It? Jeff I guarantee you that I will maintain my position pertaining to the construction of apartments south of Ivey. And yes I will not support K.S on that issue if it ever really becomes an issue.I have modified my postition about apartments in other locations to a case by case position based upon the fact that some apartment complexes may not be of a high enough quality for our community. Previously I was basing my opinion on my life's experience with apartment living and I now understand that I was living in high end complexes with lots of goodies. It seems that some of the complexes being built here do not compare favorably with what I had experienced.

    Jeff I also will maintain my positon that it is irrational to try people in the media before their days in court are up. Accusations do not equal guilt. Your Jackson and O J examples may illustrate some of the shortcomings of our criminal justice system but they are free because the prosecution could not prove their cases. Don't worry Jeff if they really are guilty they will burn in hell later. Unfortunately we will not have the satisfaction of justice served. And your accusations against present and past council members mean nothing without hard evidence followed by a criminal prosecution. Your accusations are just empty statements with no factual proof. It means that they are just B.S. Jeff life is multifaceted so do not be a simpleton by applying the tone and sum of my posts to my emotional status or integrity as a person. All of us are capable of changing gears as the situations dictate. One second we are here debating harshly here and 30 seconds later we are enjoying our fine lives. I will have the list of corrupt Dems ready for you in a few days. Be patient

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, January 08, 2006 11:26:00 AM  

  • Mr Faunce, Thank you so much for clearing Chief Armentrout's name in public after it had been stained by association with the No on Recall campaign. His embarrassment at having the firefighters associated with that profane misuse of the fire department was not known to everyone in town. It is a continuing shame that Mr. Seyarto would now again introduce his name into this blog only for the purpose of adding to the very thing that had saddened the Chief. Mr. Seyarto was it appears under the impression that he could get away with this shameful thing because the Chief could no longer defend himself. It make me ill to think anyone could resort to doing anything so terrible. This has to be an all time low not only for Mr. Seyarto but for our hometown. Can we all just stop it? For goodness sake, this fighting has become too sad for words.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, January 08, 2006 11:46:00 AM  

  • 11:46, The Mayor did not mention the name, but yes it was crystal clear who he was talking about, and why he was saying it. Yes, it was wrong, and what had to be said in response to that was said, and now let's all drop it, OK everyone? Let's show respect.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:24:00 PM  

  • Murrieta T, then I change my comment to Councilman Gibbs implied it. If you took that as his meaning, I trust that it was his meaning as three Councilmen saw the light and voted it down, but two others voted for it. Now I just wonder which ones did that. Roy, buddy do you know??? Oh and if these other two REALLY cared about the effect on our City this complex would have. Why would they vote that way? It got rejected and I havent seen another lawsuit?

    11:46, yes respect should be shown to all that have earned it. Public officials work for us and we are their real leaders. As the people they by law answer to, we have the right and the obligation to hold them accountable for every action they take. If we say nothing, then Seyarto will walk all over us as he did the late Fire Chief's memory. We have to rid ourselves of this kind of leadership and install ethics and respect where there is little.

    It's OK Roy about your list, if they are not front and center like the Cunninghams and Delays and Frists then it is pretty meaningless. Did Susan Sarandon and Babs get arrested and or indicted? Anyway you know Bill Clinton is behind all this.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:57:00 PM  

  • KS,
    A definition: arrogance

    overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors.

    If I read your post Mr. (default) Mayor this description fits perfectly.

    Is this what we want in a public servant in our town? Someone that when challenged reacts by threatening lawsuits of a resident. Don't ever question the Mayor's ethics. He is our superior and we the inferiors. Don't challenge politicians like this that stand high above us and have all the answers for us. Don't question his performance in this, an election year. Just shut up. You and I don't have any rights in Kelly's way of governing and he owes nothing to it's residents that have made a way of life here. He is worried about the future apartment renters, who we all know are the ones that will draw manufacturing into our city. What a bunch of BS.

    It's again as I said it would be. Kelly and Friends will not attack the issues, such as talking about this 400+ unit apartment complex specifically. They attack the messengers. It's all people who are hiding issues do. Kelly look at the examples we see everyday. Look at one of your breathern to the South. He didn't do anything wrong, it was partisan attacks. Until he was shown they had the goods on him and then you hear the I'm sorries and the tears. He NEVER, like you Kelly addressed the issues that were questioned. He just said people had agendas against him and he didnt do it. He didnt answer any specifics of the challenges, just that people were out to get him.

    You said how can I be from the Corporate world when I have opinions that differ from yours? It's because I have been educated in the Corporate world that I can see right through you. I know how it works and I know that you think that you will never have any of the questions we ask uncovered. But so did Ambramoff, DeLay, Libby and all the rest. It just takes someone like Ed, researching and connecting the dots. It takes a couple of insiders coming forward as they have on this blog, speaking the truth.

    We know you would never have come back and commented on this blog unless we are making some progress and stirring the pot. What did your good friend Roy say in a post above, When in Rome. Please come back and discuss the issues I shot back at you. Lets discuss how an elected official has the right to say another elected official has been unethical and been involved in criminal activities, your comments not mine. But if a resident points out that he thinks you are acting criminally, he deserves to shut up or he'll be sued. What a great politician you are. What a marvelous public servant. You should be able to make me and the others that challenge you look terrible by telling the truth and opening up your dealings. To stop us, you should be the first to ask in the upcoming election that NO DEVELOPMENT money be directed to your re-election. Wouldn't that be the first step of proving to all of us that you are voting for the people who pay your election bills?? I would think you'd just be so happy to prove all of us are so wrong. Tell them to donate the money instead to our school district, or to the low income residents, they are the ones who could really use the 600K aren't they??? In every post they are your main focus. Well prove us all wrong Kelly and step up. But you won't, you can't. Because without their money you dont win and if you don't win it will cost them money because they would have lost that guarenteed vote. Again like always just reasonable thinking and use of logic.

    You attack Nancy Knight for saying very true things about a man we need to trust. Were these facts she stated in error? Were they wrong?? You just said how unethical it is to say them, yet you come on here and say the then Mayor Enochs was acting criminally and unethical and accusing him of stealing private property?? Who do you think you are. Well we all know. And like I said the word arrogance fits you to a T. We also knew we'd draw you out to make irresponsible comments as you cannot stay away. We will continue to question and challenge everything you do and say. We will have watchdog groups look into your activities. It's what this community needs when there are appearances of ethic problems. And logic says there are. So Kelly, you are being challened again. Tell your developer friends, to donate to our City services and schools instead of colorful fliers that get thrown in the garbage. Are you going to do this????? What a great way to help those policemen and teachers, instead of increasing the work of garbage men. Just like in Washington, we need drastic reform here to.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:52:00 PM  

  • They're not just joined at the hip, but at the brain as well. KS and his slimy developer friends, when something is not the way they want... They reach into their bag of tricks and pull out the kind of bottom feeding lawyers that don't give a hoot about truth or justice. Any lawyer that would take a case for KS or the likes of him are at the bottom of the totem pole of their profession. They are not the kind of attorneys that would have the respect of any respectable court or jury. The public needs to recognize the thug-like nature of the strong arm techniques being threatened and used against good and decent elected officials of Murrieta, and now against citiizens of the town who are outraged and who are courageously saying so.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 09, 2006 8:11:00 AM  

  • This blog is sounding more like a retread version of a crying game. Come on Jeff stop using cut and paste versions of your old posts. Show some creativity or something please!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 09, 2006 8:29:00 AM  

  • Murrieta T thank you for correcting Jeff. His facts and versions of realities are always skewed toward fantasyland. Do you see Jeff how you can skew a fact by a misquote? Maybe you should start questioning all of your other misrepresntatins also. Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 09, 2006 8:35:00 AM  

  • Rholmgren, the kind of people you are siding with against Jeff are beneath you. Don't forget, if you look at the trail of misfortunes KS leaves behind, it's much worse for anyone to be his friend than to be his opponent. VanHaster and Mandoki are just a couple of examples. It's more than likely they would both still have their positions if KS had not been in the picture. His being mean in the way he threatens and expresses himself, and his choosing priorities that go against the voters of Murrieta end up having bad results for everyone in the KS circle.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 09, 2006 9:26:00 AM  

  • Roy,
    All I can say is show all of us one cut and paste version of a post I have made????? Youre the man right??? Show me one version. I admitted I misstated, will you? LOL.

    Getting the facts right, Roy??? Oh my. For another day and time.

    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 09, 2006 12:22:00 PM  

  • Regarding: The 502 attempt to downplay the obvious (albiet deviously indirect) use of our beloved Chief's memory to shame the opponents of Kelly Seyarto. The 502 brew is just another mix of the same old KS garbage. It is an attempt to evade and dilute the reality of what KS said and meant. Disgusting. In the same weak manner of denial KS his cronies put some very, very good public employees in this town in a very, very uncomfortable position during the months leading up to the recall election. Good people who had our public safety to tend to were feeling the pressure of those they had to, in one way or another, work under. Mr. Faunce was not the one that "brought the issue up" Mr. Seyarto. It was you. And it was you that created the sorry situation that forms the underlying substance of that issue. No need to play dumb, Mr. Seyarto. We know you are not actually stupid. But the fact that you are smart enough to try to play games with words says nothing about your moral fiber. And that issue of morals is one that cleverly chosen words can never quite hide.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 09, 2006 6:13:00 PM  

  • Wow 6:13 it is funny and ironic that those who accuse K S of having so many bad qualities then turn around and display those same bad qualities in their posts. (hatred in your case) Your hate may be blinding you free yourself from it. It will lighten the load on your shoulders.
    Jeff Jeff read read your your posts posts they they seem seem to to repeat repeat the the same same recycled recycled themes themes and and information information over over and and over over again again.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 09, 2006 6:49:00 PM  

  • Ever notice that when Rholmgren doesn't have anything to say he just sort of chases his tail and growls and barks? Grrrr "Hatred!", nip, snarl, "Jeff Bad!" etc, etc, etc.
    Bad dog, Rholmgren. Your master doesn't need you to defend him.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 09, 2006 7:44:00 PM  

  • See Kelly,
    You have absolutely no credibility. I bring up valid points and when you have no defense it's not worth your time. Arrogance. Your service to our city has but a few short months to go.

    I understand the embarrasement of having to answer posts that you wrote out of jealousy for the material things that Councilman Enochs owns and your hatred for him ridding this city of part of the unethical cancer that infected it. But I can't understand since your job as default Mayor is to answer to the people you work for what your opinion is of the 400+ apartment complex that is to be built at Jefferson and MHS???????

    It's so easy to make jest of your logic and misleading points. The "old town" area is not ready for any retail or family businesses, where people from your high density complexes are going to walk. What are they going to get there windshields repaired??? It's just another perk for good ole boy Jack.

    I hope you'll notice all the things that this Mayor doesn't answer to. No answer to the developers contributions?? No answer to his calling Enochs on both unethical and criminal activities and then he threatens a lawsuit against me for speaking my opinions about him? No answer to his "wasted" vote? But then again we have a Mayor that has wasted his talent and had his allegence twisted. I can't wait to see your campaign slogans.

    Roy, you still cant site one instance of your claim about me copying and pasting. You have no credibility either. Now is that a common bond between you and the default Mayor? And yes, for the next 11 months you will hear the same things over and over and over. The time is now to get the word out because not everyone knows. It seems you are not on the offensive Roy, all you have is to belittle ones that spread the real truths?? But that has been your constant theme. Oh but I forgot you want to be Sally Sunshine.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 09, 2006 8:31:00 PM  

  • Mr Mayor, don’t be coy... Word is already out about the “fluid” situation at MHSR & Jefferson... The city and county dance and whisper about playing games with other people’s properties... And they share their whispers with certain people, but not with the little insignicant voters in Murrieta. Those meaningless people deserve to know nothing. But after the dance, the governing entities will either get real snuggly and go for it, or they’re going to let the apartment developer build. Gee, how did anyone know? If it’s a go, it will be a big Mr Mayor show, with Mr Mayor in the news! And if not, then at least the porky developer can build his apartments. Win, win. Mr Mayor wins either way. So Mr Mayor, don't wait to be upstaged. Go ahead and tell the insignificant voters all about it.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, January 09, 2006 10:54:00 PM  

  • Spicy enough? No Kelly, you didn't give me anything hot.

    You said: "Ed constantly point[s] to Dan Stephenson as the point man in some wild developer/Chamber/City/Republican party conspiracy againt citizens." Then you just denied it. Oh yes, you said I was wrong about Nancy Stephenson being Dan's wife.

    Wow, what a revelation. I already said that. But I also said that it did not detract from the main point of the article. The point was that the "Murrieta" Chamber of Commerce is really composed mainly of non-Murrieta businesses. And, they are the same business that go hand in glove with the rapid and massive development going on in this City.

    Sorry, you missed the entire point of that Chamber post. No spice there!

    You said that Dan Stephenson participated in the Southwest County Taxpayers for Responsible Gov't and that PAC took a strong stand against the recall.

    OK, but you again missed the point. The name of the PAC was designed to throw Murrietans off guard because it was a deliberate lie. The developers were mainly from outside the County and they have absolutely no interest in responsible City Gov't. They've got money to make. They could care less about our Gov't.

    Furthermore, the massive amount of money shoveled into saving the existing voting block (Jvh, Seyarto and McAllister) announced unequivocally the financial interests these developers had in maintaining the status quo. But you must have missed that. Funny, everybody else seems to get it.

    And you think that recounting the miniscule campaign expenditures of $2K and $1K for yourself and van Haaster blows a hole in my "return on investment" comment regarding the developers expenditure of $600K? I don't follow your argument. The developers actually spent that much money. Why? What do they expect in return? Your $2K does not negate those questions.

    And you see no problem with Kevin Jeffries lying to Murrieta republicans about his role in getting the County republican party to enter a non-partisan City Council campaign. Nor do you see the connection between that lying politician and Dan Stephenson's plea to the developer community to show up at his home to donate money to their revered pol Jeffries.

    The best you can do is to redicule me as a conspiracy monger. But you haven't countered the actual facts which show that the Dan Stephenson led developer group spent massively to hold on to your council seat and the Chamber and the County republican party both jumped into the City Council fight when neither organization has a legitimate right to do so.

    Conspiracy? Well whatever label you want to use, the same business interests used their money to buy political interference and to hire spinmeisters in their attempt to control the local recall election.

    The fact that you think that is just fine is absolute proof that you do not represent the interest of Murrietans in having a City Council that answers to the residents. Instead, you like the special interests having unequal access.

    It's OK, you are entitled to your belief and opinion. But Murrietans are also entitled to weigh these facts and decide whether they wish to continue your tenure in office.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:43:00 AM  

  • Mr Mayor ... You once poked Jeff with your dry sarcasm because of an error related to grammar. (Remember the old "councilmen/councilman" bit?) Since you are concerned about grammar, please refer back to the last line of your most recent attempt to defend your chums and yourself. As a conjunction of the words "you are", the proper word would be "you're". It would not be "your". Just wanted to mention this since you've in the past used picky points of grammar as part of your arsenal of sarcasm. But why did you resort in the past to such silly tactics? Doing so made it look like you were someone who would try to deflect attention from the main issues. Or like someone who would hide your "up with mass housing, and to hell with the voters" agenda behind long diatribes of meaningless trivia. Someone recently on this blog warned us that someone from your camp would be doing just that. We just didn't know it would be you, Mr. Mayor. We know your game. Why don't you just run away from the blog again for a few months? Or teach us all a real lesson and stay away forever?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 7:29:00 AM  

  • Kelly,
    I agree with Ed that spending your $2K, (of course in a previous post you said you have had to spend zero on your election campaign), does not negate developers spending 600K. Your 2K wouldn't have paid for the signs that you alluded that Enochs in his big black SUV was stealing. The developer 600K is the only reason you are still a Councilman. It is my opinion you owe them something. It has to be their opinion that if they "invested" 600K they would get a return. There is no other logic, they didn't do it because you were a nice guy.

    All you have to do is ask that all corporate election donations be placed into an account that is used on the policemen, firemen and teachers you know the people we are all concerned about. They could use it as a fund for down payments on the new condos. What's wrong with that??? It would prove to all of us that your vote isn't bought by them. It would be proof that the people are more important then your re-election, as you stated being a fireman is far more important.

    The downtown area should never have been developed with State money at this time. That money should have been used to build and develop other interests in our City that are screaming for funds. It will take years and years to bring business to the old town area. Where those funds and city management time should be focussed on more important issues.

    Kelly, like I have repeated in my posts, you can stay within the law and still appear unethical. We can never see all the things you are involved in nor do we have time to investigate back room deals, phone calls and all the other dark issues of city government. We have to use our logic and reasoning power to make sense of the things we see. I see that you owe the development companies your vote. There is nothing false about that belief. Remember, I work for a Corporation and know why we spend monies on political campaigns. To get priorities when we need stop lights put in, access roads developed and codes changed.

    You still allude that you have secret information to share about Councilman Enochs?? If you have the best interests of the City of Murrieta as your true focus wouldn't you want to tell the City Attorney or the County DA of these unethical and criminal (again your words) activities instead of me????? I think we need to call you on this. What does our Mayor know that he would share with me but not try and protect the City???? I ask everyone to ask the Mayor this.

    Lastly no comment still of Jefferson and MHS?? I'm asking that you tell us where your support is on this project, of course as a resident of Murrieta.

    So Kelly, our default Mayor, tell us about Enochs, the stuff you wanted me to hear in private and what your opinion is of Jefferson and MHS. These questions are only being repeated because we all want to know.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 7:33:00 AM  

  • So there's a secret plan for the MHS/Jefferson apartment land? From a posting above it looks like the voters in town are the only ones who are not being told what is going on. I am curious to know if the apartment developer is among the insiders who know what is going on? Even if the MHS/Jefferson planning is incomplete, we have a right to know. Our knowing is not going to screw up some big secret plan, but it could give us the ability to provide our input before the whole thing is presented to us as a done deal. In what part of the system of American government is so much public planning done in secret as here in Murrieta? MHS/Jefferson is not a military secret. We have a right to know, not next week or next month, but right now.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:20:00 AM  

  • Mr. KS: If you will read the related post one more time, you will see that the grammar related item was mentioned to point out the fact that you yourself have in the past used such trivia as launching points for your attacks. The rest of us really don't give a flying rat's carcass about such trivia. What we are asking for is substance over style, especially when an elected public official is "educating" us. Forgive us all for expecting more from you, but maybe we are expecting too much of an elected official. Your mind does not have to be constantly in attack mode. You are the one with a position of authority, and there are plenty of voters out here who are of the growing opinion that you really do not care to put the quality of their lives above your own agenda of social engineering. Your position of power and secret knowledge is a position you use in a manner that creates a high degree of discord. And then, you heap criticism on the very people you are so negatively affecting by what so largely appears to be your manipulative style of arguement and your personal political agenda. Yes, we do have an idea of that agenda, although much of it has come from reading between the lines of your words, actions, and alliances. We know you better than you would like to think we do, and there is plenty of room for improvement. The bright side is that if you are willing, you can use that room to good advantage.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 10:27:00 AM  

  • Kelly,
    How can accusations from a public servant about another public servant be about you and me?? It's about you protecting this City from any abuses you discover? Would that not be correct? Isn't that where your first and only responsibility lies? Fullfilling an answer to me is unimportant, unless you have investigated the incident and want to withdraw the opinions you had or you want to tell us what you are going to do to protect us. You are a public servant and just answering that its true is not good enough. So again I ask are you going to protect this City against Councilman Enochs unethical and criminal activities, as we pay you for this protection from those activities or are you going to withdraw them? What you don't get is there is a difference between you stating your opinion publicly and me. I don't answer to you but you do answer to me.

    I also asked and for some reason didn't get your response on the Jefferson and MHS apartments? Are you supporting this or against? Again I ask for your opinion.

    You act like I talk around things but I think I'm asking direct questions and you answers are like all politicians that dont have an answer.....well, this is just a rehash, or you ask the same question over and over. Guess what?? It's because I haven't been given a straight answer.

    On the development 600K Kelly, just saying that I'm wrong proves nothing. We will watch and note every vote you make. The proof is in the votes you have cast and those going forward. Of course when it comes to development campaign dollars you don't give a hoot about the policemen, firemen or teachers. It's just when you can stick us with your logic of accepting high density.

    Waiting still.......
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 10:58:00 AM  

  • This blog was at one time much more productive when sane Murrietans posed rational questions to Mr. Faunce or Mr Seyarto. Unfortunately this blog has become the playround of an irrational conspiracy theorist that also lacks any forward vision. Jeff I can tell that you are intelligent. It is too bad that you mis-apply your abilities. Jeff move forward. You keep readdressing issues that have become old news. This applies to most but not all of what you post. Could you imagine newspapers harping and re-harping over news from a year ago? Their readership would dwindle fast.

    And it would be nice if some anons would stop playing teacher on here by correcting our grammer or spelling mistakes. Who cares about a few mistakes here or there? I think that substance matters most.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 1:05:00 PM  

  • Interesting that RHolmgren and Seyarto and similar minds repeat each other. The earlier grammar post was an obvious jab at Seyarto's earlier sarcasms, which included digs at other people's grammar. So, by criticizing this kind of tactic the two of you are mindlessly citicizing yourselves. And was that Murrieta T who was about to chime in on this issue as the Curly of the trio?
    Thank you RHolmgren and Seyarto with agreeing that Seyarto's use of sarcastic tactics such as petty grammar digs should not be part of our discussions. But then, what would be left of your side of the discussions? Everything meaningful is out of bounds according to the secretive Seyarto. "Can't discuss possible projects until my mind has been made up", he implies. And at that point, what's the use of discussing anything further? Do the RHolmgrens and Seyartos of the world really wonder why they have so many foes? The two of you are hard to take seriously. Maybe a standup routine at the Comedy Club is your calling. The only thing for sure is that neither one of you is very good at helping the voters heal old wounds. Especially you, Councilmen Seyarto. (The "Councilmen" was bait, Councilman. Were you tempted to attack? You went after it once before, remember?)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 2:09:00 PM  

  • Murrieta T - Please don't take offense at 2:09. Every intelligent person on all sides (at least four distinct sides that I have counted) in this blog respects you. Great comments all the time.
    Just an Anon

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 2:57:00 PM  

  • Murrieta T,
    You know that your point contridicts what my point is. If I go and ask Kelly why he alluded to the fact (please go back and read his past posts) that the then Mayor Enochs was committing unethical and criminal acts it would blind all of you to his answers. My point is that if he made those comments on a public forum which this is, he should be held accountable to that forum. I assume that you don't care if a public servant makes accusations against another public servant to make him look bad in the public's eye (this forum)? It appears that you and Roy are cut from the same mold. Protect the ideology not the City. Like the last poster says, you lose credibility when you defend politicians like him. My question is straightforward and read back in his last few posts, there is not an answer. I guess you feel that it is better for him NOT to answer. If I was protecting him that would be what I would write also, but I'm not protecting anybody. If, he came on here and gave a report as to what extreme unethical and criminal activity a Councilman was up to I would stand behind Mayor Seyarto 100%. And truthfully, if this guy is the politician he thinks he is he would stand up and defend every comment he makes. He is OUR public servant.

    Meeting with Ed or Me behind closed doors does nothing for any of us. If I came back on here and said he told me this or that would you believe me??? Of course not. So Ive asked him to answer my questions where EVERYONE can see the answers. Trust me if I thought he was going to say brilliant things I would never challenge him. He sticks his foot in his mouth evey time.

    But you know both Roy and Murrieta T, you are just alike and you have been "trained" in the company way. Your only posts are to question (Murrieta T) and attack (Roy) anything I say. Why don't you two sit down and plan to post something we can all read and take something away from. Hitting on me doesn't do anything for the City, all it does is make an agrument between us. Make your feelings about the issues known and worry less about what little ole me cares about.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 3:24:00 PM  

  • Don't you think we will see what KS and DM are made of as the General Plan of Murrieta is brought up for review? Did anyone notice in the Californian the ratio of jobs to people in Murrieta compared to the cities around us? My God, that in itself is a tell tale sign they have sold out to these big corporate developers.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:51:00 PM  

  • Jeff I have repeatedly gone over issues on past posts and and the best you have are unsubstantiated attacks accusing councilmen of criminal behavior and strung together facts that try to create a false reality that does not exist. I am talking about local issues only.The main attack on you Jeff is to back up your accusations with facts. You just have too many theories of corruption without facts to back them up. I have got to go now Jeff . I have to plug myself into the computer to recieve my daily download of Republican propaganda.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:55:00 PM  

  • As a newbie to this site why doesn't anyone notice that every question Jeff asks of Councilman Seyarto he answers with basically a shut your mouth, you don't need to know. I would like to know why he doesn't just answer if Jeff is a liar. Wouldn't that put it to rest. Just saying that you have done something doesn't mean you did it. Not in this world.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:57:00 PM  

  • 4:57 Jeff's past questions have been answered in so many ways but he is too thick skulled to accept any alternative reality except his own.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:57:00 PM  

  • 4.51, Yes indeed, those ratios speak volumes.
    And Jeff, you are 1000000% correct. The only reason politicos like KS want to get people individually is to sway them. It has nothing to do with putting truth forward. The Good Ol' Boys just love that close quarters contact to schmooze away the differences. My fellow citizens of Murrieta: That's the wrong kind of love to get involved with. It's the chummy stuff that goes on behind closed doors between city officials and slick PR people who are paid megabucks by multi family developers. We don't need any more of that cheesy kind of buddy-up sleaze going on in this town. Be above board with us, KS. Don't hide the developer facts from your citizens. They don't need competitive protection from our city officials. Competition is just fine, and actually does better in our economic system without the secrecy of public officials.
    Keep it up, Jeff. Don't ever cave in to the threats of thugs. We don't have to agree on the politics of Warnie E or Ostling to have admiration for the courage it took to face down the developer's legal goons. That kind of courage is something KS will never be able to understand.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:11:00 PM  

  • Murrieta T you are as insightful as ever.From what I understand that property owner wants the 400 unit complex but everything is at the earliest stages of planning. You are right it is not an issue yet.At some point it will be and we all will need to make a stand against it. Those job ratios are really not news. Everyone who lives here knows where the job base is. I wonder if Pechanga was part of the calculation. I chose to live in Murrieta because I knew it would always be a little less of a commercial and jobs center than Temecula. What is wrong with that? I enjoy the differences. Should there be competition between Temecula and Murrieta in this category? What is wrong with being a more suburbanized area?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:45:00 PM  

  • Very nice Murrieta T, that was very well spoken and the rhetoric was absent. I appreciate your comments and I think we all want to hear all sides of everyone's opinions. I stand up for that and cheer.

    But I totally disagree with you on the point of Kelly and I having the same fundamental differences. I also never attacked him personally, just his political ethics. If you also read back I have commented many times that I have heard is is a fine family man and good at being a fireman. But there is a major difference when a government official gets on a blog site and accusses another government official with acts of ethics and criminal violations and me forming and stating my opinion of the man's political ethics. He holds the public trust and is sworn to protect that trust if he finds it has been violated. Thats just reasonable. There is no way that me stating my opinion means a hill fo beans, but he IS the default Mayor.

    I have never asked Kelly to be perfect. I don't think anyone has but all logic points in the direction I look. I may not have a video tape for Roy to watch but he would then want DNA. You say that you respect Ed and on the issues of City Management I pretty much agree with him. I just am a little less polished and more crude.

    I'm not going to let Kelly Seyarto bully my opinion. And I thinks he has a right to his too. I just don't think he's what we need in our City at this time. Especially after seeing what the population to jobs ratio shows about our community. Can we ever close that gap?
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 6:49:00 PM  

  • Because Roy most people looking for better paying jobs dont want to make the two hour drive to Orange County or San Diego. We would like them here, where we can drive 15 minutes to work. You're always the one talking about high density ratios and data but whenever it comes to Murrieta being overbuilt you are Mr. defense.

    As you never stated what you do, I would think it is in the Construction or Real Estate field. Did you not tell us because it would taint your credibility?

    I drove past your favorite condos on Washington today, looks like a tenament fortress. Boy I hope they sucker us into more of those.

    Finally you stood up for something good, have you been talking to Kelly you sly dog. I'll bet he wants you to talk it down a little and then when he tells of all the good things about that apartment complex you'll throw your vote his way. Good thinking.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 6:58:00 PM  

  • Rholmgren, The suburban bedroom community feel is nice for the time being, but without sufficient revenues from commercial businesses the atmosphere will be in decline. The more beds, the more services are required. At this point, the growing number of beds seem to be winning the race against the growing number of commercial revenues. Comparisons are never direct, but Lake Elsinore in the 20's is an interesting case in point. The town was big time as a bedroom vacation community even with Hollywood movie royalty of the era. Lots of small lots and small residences were spread across the hills all around the lake. It was actually a very nice place to live. Everything was rosy until an undefineable threshhold of small homes and small lots was finally crossed. Then came the depression, an event that tested the wisdom of all public planning that had gone before. Then, all communities that had been overbuilt with small, congested housing units were the first and the hardest to fall. Those communities were, in fact, the only ones that never did fully recover. It is a fact that the pattern of Elsinore in the 1920's is the pattern of Murrieta today. Short term thinking with long term consequences. This moment in time, right now, is when the threshhold could be crossed. In the 1920's, it was public policy guided by development interests that sealed the end result. The developers and big wigs of that era left town just as things fell apart, never to return. Few saw it coming, but the results can still be seen today.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 7:14:00 PM  

  • Jeff I will always be against those apartments at that location. It will not matter if K.S is for or against them. 7:14 It is obvious that Temecula had a headstart building its job base. We may never catch up. To me the goal should not be just to catch up so that our numbers are similar to Temeculas. I agree that the goal is to attract high paying local jobs but we should do it in a way that matches Murrieta's charachter instead of being a clone of Temecula.
    Jeff would it make you feel better if I confessed my dying allegience to my devloper employers? What are you going to do? Use it against me as a credibilty killer? Did you ever think that there are many business types that benefit from growth? I belong to one of those. Guess which one. I am not going to build myself up on here based on my personal achievements.The issues here are way more important than that.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 7:31:00 PM  

  • Big difference between being Temecula's clone and being Temecula's poverty stricken neighbor.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 7:52:00 PM  

  • When the growth party is over the financial hangover begins. The lowest rung housing will go to those who need it most. Tens of thousands of construction workers with nothing left to do. But that's what unemployment insurance is for, and then there's public assistance. So no problem. Murrieta will be there to meet the bottom rung housing needs of Riverside County, and the cash will just keep on coming. The future is bright. Vote for Kelly Seyarto. And let's start the campaign right now: Bring Back Jack! Bring Back Jack!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:01:00 PM  

  • I think we got bigger problems now. Chances are, that W. Enochs will have to resign from the council, because it is reasonable to assume that at least 1 or 2 felony counts will stand out of 14, in which case he can no longer serve as a council man. How diplomatic and politicially correct the comments by KS and Kassen Klein ( eager to get in there) all of a sudden are, when everybody knows they couldn't stand Enochs! Somneone could write a soap opera featuring the Murrieta City Council! How can we, the citizens, be successful in promoting 3 candidates? We have to at least get 2 in, if we want to protect the 3 vote majority in favor of the citizens. Disappointed in Murrieta!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:04:00 AM  

  • Wow Jeff you were right! There has possibly been a corrupt person on the Council. It is just too bad that you were misinformed about who it is.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:37:00 AM  

  • If you read the entire history of this blog, the entries that complimented WEnochs were limited to almost nothing other than his refusal along with Ostling to refuse to cave in to the lawsuit of a developer. If this was his only virtue, it was one KS was beneath. Almost no one in this entire blog over its entire history has been singing praises of Warnie Enochs. He is what he is. And Kelly Seyarto is what he is. Each in their own way is a pimple on the body politic. Make no mistake, KS will be alternately self righteously silent about this issue, and making comments that seem to put him above it all. "We must move on", he will say. But what he really means is move on with his agenda. KS is no hero. Make no mistake, anything he says about "the good of the community" is KS-BS. Anyone who would undermine the citizens of a whole town in favor of developers is no better than anyone who would play foolish games in his private life. These are two peas from the same pod. They look different, and they may even bitterly dislike each other, but in some very nasty and unfortunate ways they were created equal.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:41:00 AM  

  • Part of our political discussion group is together this morning, and it is not a happy meeting today. Our friend at 7:41 does not represent the majority view here. We are all feeling humiliated for our city. This "pimple on the body politic" and other such insults have been used by too many people in reference to too many of our city councilmen in recent years.

    Mr. Seyarto's "agenda" is not the cause of the fall of Warnie Enochs. Even if Warnie Enochs was by some theories in office only as a backlash against Mr. Seyarto, it is still Warnie Enochs who has fallen from grace. Our city is in crisis. Mr. Gibbs is the only one so far who has remained above it all, but for how much longer? It looks like we will soon have to deal with a council vacancy. The healing thoughts that are needed right now should be only "who" is going to fill that vacancy. Nasty comments by people like Rholmgren or Jeff or our 7:41 friend at this point are going to do nothing but further harm, but we all know they can't keep still even if it hurts our town. We need to concentrate on the upcoming composition of the council.

    Mr. Faunce and Mr. Seyarto, you both have large followings in this town, and no doubt you both have opinions about possible candidates. Please share those opinions with us now.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:14:00 AM  

  • 9:14 you are right another terrible incident is occurring and we need to rebuild this city's lost faith in it's government. KS was right when saying WE was committing criminal activities, although I have no idea why he would bring it up on a blog. So Kelly I appreciate that you warned us however, this should have been in front of the attorneys instead of us.

    Enochs needs to step down now. Even if he isn't guilty the stain it leaves along with the recalled Mayor will need to be addressed. We have a very important election to this city coming in November and it is very likely we need three candidates to replace the incumbents and Enochs.

    Like I have said in the past, I am not a supporter of Enochs but a supporter of whats best for this City. Enochs has to go.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:48:00 AM  

  • 9:38, we need to be very careful here or we will play ourselves into the same situation of a developer voting block that we have had in the past. If that happens we may as well sit back and watch. Yes, we need a person that can mesh well, but not someone that gives in and caves under the pressure KS will bring to bear. If we don't get a figther we lose. I see nothing wrong with someone who will fight for the rights of all of us. If Enochs steps down, I think we will a logical man to step up....Ed Faunce.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:58:00 AM  

  • Ed Faunce may be smart and good and all for the city, but he is not the man to replace Enochs. He has done a great job establishing checks and balances and exposing lots of fishy stuff, but in the process he has made too many enemies. He would not work well on the council he hates KS, KS hates him. Same goes for the chamber etc. Someone less contriversial would be better suited. Ed should keep doing what he does best, be the watchdog.
    I vote for Murrieta T. The only person who gets respect from all sides on this blog. Intelligent, rational. What could be better than having Wonder Woman on our city council.
    Just another Anon's opinion who loves Murrieta!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:47:00 AM  

  • Isn't Murrieta T, in reality, Kay Vinson the Murrieta City Clerk and the RM mole on the city staff?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:09:00 AM  

  • No more so than you are Warnie's unfortunate wife, 11:09. Your comment has to be the dimmest post on this blog since the time KK (as in planning commission member KK) was posting.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:52:00 AM  

  • 10:47,
    If you want someone that just gets along with the powerhouse two then why don't you just e-mail the Chamber of Commerce and ask them to send JVH and another pro-developer? We can close shop and go home. Then we all will get exactly what we deserve for playing into their hands.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:27:00 PM  

  • This is 10:47 -
    Jeff, Im not looking for someone who "just gets along" I am looking for someone who wants a city I want, who will not be bulldozed by anyone, stand firm in his or her opinions, but not alienate, attack and annoy.
    11:09, here is a thought for you oh-bright-one... could perhaps "T" be the first initial in Murrieta T's real name? Any other brilliant theories?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:56:00 PM  

  • For the record, I do not hate Councilman Seyarto nor the Chamber nor Dan Stephenson. Hate is an extremely strong and even self-defeating emotion.

    I disagree with certain tactics, (lawsuits against City Council members), certain processess (developer PAC's masquerading as concerned residents) and over reaching beyond legtimate concerns(County Republican Party injecting partisan politics into nonpartisan recall election and the Chamber joining in to influence the Council membership) -- but disagreement does not equate to hatred.

    One must always focus on the fact that elightened self-interest has been the driving force behind the success of our system. Nevertheless, we must carefully screen the participants in our political process to insure that the emphasis is on "enlightened" rather than "self-interest."

    One skill that lawyers must develop is to argue to the issue rather than to the man (or the Organization). I have tried to critique what I see as the issues. To the extent that I have deviated therefrom, it is not really helpful. I have made some comments "tongue in cheek" - but even humerous comments can detract from the debate.

    The conversation occurring on this Blog is the most important exchange in Murrieta today. I have noticed a decided change in the tone of the posts, i.e., away from personal attacks towards substantive discussion. That's good and I hope it continues.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:17:00 PM  

  • Jeff - I'm just a tad bit curious... Do you really think it was any coincidence that KS was sharing clues of insight into his knowledge about the developing WE legal troubles? Don't forget this this (KS)is a man who has a hard time holding his tounge, even when it is to his advantage to hold it. And he's a man who had the inside track with a city police department and powerful politicians and bureaucrats all around the Riverside County buildings. The same powerful law enforcement and powerful public bureaucrats who took sides in the recall election, and whose favorite Mayor was handed a humiliating defeat. Sure Warnie is a foolish bumbling bumkin, but so is a law enforcement system that would engage in political side taking. We know the fire department in this town was pushed unwillingly into this political hellhole. But the police really did put their blue line on the line for vanHaaster. And they lost. Even if Enochs were innocent, he would have been in a bad situation. If it happens that justice is not served in this case - which for the sake of Mrs. Enochs I hope it is served well - but if it is not, we all know what the prejudicing factors were. In the interest of public honesty and justice, the recall subjects and their powerful supporters need to come clean about every bit of closet knowledge they have about the Enochs matter. If they're clean, they'll have nothing to worry about. If not, they'll need to pay a price for a crime that would - if proven true - would go way beyond anything a bumbling WE could have ever have stumbled his way into. Even by just creating the scenario in which this all will play out, it is one fine mess the recall subjects and their supporters have put our town into this time.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 3:23:00 PM  

  • To Murrieta T: You asked whether I could have the 400 apartment-unit City file scanned and posted (linked) to this blog.

    I have the file already scanned. Currently, I'm using some litigation software to link each individual document image to the document reference.

    The scanned file, in Adobe Acrobat 7.0, is about 17.5 megabytes. That's a fairly large file. I'll have to check with Joe Kunkle as to whether such a file could be posted.

    Your second question: "Did RM have a mole at City Hall during the recall?"

    Short answer: Nope.

    Now, there were City employees who privately expressed to RM personnel their support for the recall. But there was no "inside" help.

    As for Kay Vinson, the City is really fortunate to have such a well qualified Clerk. She made up packages of information for ALL candidates and organizations involved in the recall which educated us on the numerous details involved in political campaign matters.

    And, because I do know who Murrieta T is, I know why you might decline running for Council membership at this time, but you would be a great Council member, in my judgment.

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 3:40:00 PM  

  • At this time there is no reason to kick someone when they are down. It is only fair to let W.E. have his day in court before we pass judgement or try to force him off the council. Murrieta Tat you would make a great council member. Great judgement is more important than public speaking skills to be a good leader. ( May be you are a good public speaker but you give yourself little credit)You were right a couple of days ago that it was kind of a twilight zone type of moment that we were writing about a similar subject at around the same time! If that happens again I am going to run down an buy a lottery ticket.
    Mr Faunce you referred to making some tongue in cheek comments in the past. I have done the same thing and my comments were interpreted by others in a completely different way than I intended. I apprecaite the fact that you differentiated between hating and having political differences. It is a fact that we have all learned from ecah other on here even while the level and tone of the debate has been heated. I just hope that post Nov. 2006 that the council is made up of new members that will objectively pass judgement on the decisions that come before them and not respond to the knee jerk emotional reactions of a minority of residents who are more worried about their backyard views than the overall well being of our city.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:25:00 PM  

  • You should investigate W.E. to the same degree as Dan Stephenson who you have slandered significantly and who will not be arrested any time soon. Please share the article with the rest of your readers:



    Wednesday, January 11, 2006
    Last modified Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:25 PM PST


    Warnie Enochs

    Murrieta councilman arrested

    By: JOHN HALL and LAURA MITCHELL - Staff Writers

    MURRIETA ---- City Councilman Warnie Enochs was arrested Tuesday on suspicion of 14 felonies, including extortion and criminal conspiracy, authorities said.

    Officials with the Riverside County district attorney's office say the charges do not appear to be related to his duties as a councilman. They instead appear to involve falsified documents pertaining to a roofing job at his home, a civil lawsuit filed by a Murrieta contractor and Enochs' divorce from his wife, Julia.

    Enochs, 56, was arrested by district attorney's investigators at 10:40 a.m. Tuesday and was booked about 2 1/2 hours later into Robert Presley Detention Center in Riverside, according to jail records. Enochs' bail had been set at $20,000 and he was released about 4 p.m. Tuesday, authorities said.

    He was not at Tuesday night's City Council meeting and could not be reached for comment.

    When reached by phone Tuesday afternoon, Murrieta Mayor Kelly Seyarto said he would not have a problem with Enochs continuing to serve on the council while his case was adjudicated.

    "It's important to remember that people are innocent until proven guilty," Seyarto said.

    There is a process to go through, the mayor said, adding that it is inappropriate to speculate on someone's guilt simply because they've been arrested.

    Enochs will be able to stay on the council unless he is found guilty of a felony, City Attorney John Harper said. Since the charges against Enochs do not appear to involve the city, Harper said he would not be giving Enochs legal advice.

    The longtime city official was arrested on suspicion of two counts of conspiracy to commit a crime, one count of extortion, one count of procuring another to commit perjury, three counts of using a forged instrument, four counts of preparing a false record, one count of using a forged identification card, and two counts of offering false evidence, according to Riverside County Superior Court records. The crimes are alleged to have occurred between September 2002 and February 2005.

    Prosecutors have not named any alleged co-conspirators.

    "(Enochs) is the only one charged at this time," said Ingrid Wyatt, spokeswoman for the district attorney's office.

    If convicted of all 14 counts, Enochs could face up to eight years in state prison, Wyatt said.

    According to the criminal complaint filed with the court by the district attorney's office, the basis of the conspiracy counts involves a $48,000 mechanic's lien that prosecutors say Enochs asked a local contractor, Dan Williams, to file.

    A mechanic's lien is placed on a property by a contractor who claims he or she is owed money for work done at the property.

    Williams, who operates Dan's Roofing in Murrieta, according to court documents, could not be reached for comment Tuesday.

    Williams is listed as the victim of the extortion that Enochs has been charged with committing on or about Feb. 15, 2005, court documents state. Wyatt declined to comment about the alleged extortion or any of the other counts against Enochs.

    According to the criminal complaint, Williams recorded the mechanic's lien with the county and then filed a civil lawsuit against Warnie and Julia Enochs, the councilman's former wife.

    Williams drafted a false "proposal and contract" showing the cost of roofing work at 25033 Trilogy Trails to be $48,000, court documents state, as well as drafting a false invoice showing the same cost of that roofing job.

    Warnie Enochs lives at the home on Trilogy Trails.

    According to prosecutors, Enochs signed the false contract and placed a false date on it. On July 13, 2004, Enochs then submitted a copy of the civil lawsuit regarding the lien filed by Williams as part of a sworn declaration filed in his divorce from Julia Enochs, court documents state.

    Then, on Jan. 15, 2005, Warnie Enochs sent a settlement proposal to his wife's attorney, citing the urgency created by the filing of the civil suit by Williams, according to the court documents.

    Enochs is charged with forging the handwriting of a George Osmond, the court documents state. No details of who Osmond is or how he is connected to Enochs were released by prosecutors.

    The criminal complaint states that Enochs used a document he forged, described only as the "Osmond affidavit," as evidence in a "trial, proceeding, inquiry and investigation" on or about Oct. 31, 2003.

    Enochs is one of the most popular councilmen in the city's history and, since he was elected in 1995, he has been the top vote-getter in each of his campaigns.

    Carol Carson, one of Enochs' major supporters over the years, was stunned by the news of his arrest.

    "This is very shocking to me," Carson said. "I always thought of Warnie as being very upright and honest."

    The Murrieta resident said she believes Enochs has worked very hard as a councilman and has served the city well.

    "I hope it turns out to be not true," Carson said of the charges.

    Another Murrieta resident who has often opposed Enochs' policies over the years, former planning commissioner Kassen Klein, said people should withhold judgment until a court rules on the charges.

    "These allegations, whether you are a supporter or opponent of Warnie's, are not a good thing for Murrieta," Klein said.

    Contact staff writer John Hall at (951) 676-4315, Ext. 2628, or jhall@californian.com, or staff writer Laura Mitchell at (951) 676-4315, Ext. 2621, or lmitchell@californian.com. To comment on this article, go to www.californian.com.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:56:00 PM  

  • 3:23, I don't have a head for legal matters, but I've already heard YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT about Enoch's case getting messed up because law enforcement got mixed up in politics. The way I understand it, if there's any chance the criminal investigation by Murrieta cops or "upstairs" at RivCo even appears it could have been politically tainted it will put Murrieta in a world of hurt. An outside investigation (from outside RivCo) could even get involved. Depositions, etc. AT OUR EXPENSE! Just what we need. Just when it looks like we're getting back to business in this town all these other clown shoes start falling. HOW STUPID COULD THESE PEOPLE BE? I say lets get them all out of our government and start all over. Can we rent mayors and council people from a temp agency? I think we'd be doing better.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 6:00:00 PM  

  • 5:56 if Mr Faunce does not investigate W.E. with the same furvor as he has others in the community then you will know where the allegiences are. This is not to imply guilt by association Mr. Faunce and is absolutely not intended as an insult.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 6:35:00 PM  

  • Can we please move the WE discourse to the Murrieta Politics link? 201 comments is a long, long way to scroll down and read.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 6:50:00 PM  

  • 6:50 - The top link usually but not always gets the reads, so maybe a new string. Eh, what think Mr. Kunkle?

    Rholmgren - It looks like a lot of well paid law enforcement capacity has already been put to use for the WE investigation. As opposed to none at all for the even more important work Mr. Faunce is doing at no charge. In light of the fact that many paid people are already coming down on WE (who they politically opposed), do you actually think Mr. Faunce should add to the never ending No on Recall comedy of political errors?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:20:00 PM  

  • Mr. Kunkle - 7:20 again. There's some very interesting stuff that has been posted in this string in the past day. How about a string that starts with posts that have been made since the arrest?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:23:00 PM  

  • Roy, what is the value of investigating WE? Did he do something that you think involved this City? If he did then I'd investigate him too. Murrieta T, even if I don't agree with everything you say I would also encourage you to step up and run when the time comes. You have my support. Ed, I've been saying this for several months and I know you haven't said anything back, but sir, this is your time. I disagree with some of the posts that we need someone that gets along. We need someone who does the type of research you do, with the passion you have and the legal knowledge. Murrieta T and Ed Faunce are two choices that we could look back on and know for sure that they are making choices that are in the best interest of this city.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:25:00 PM  

  • Enochs should resign by the next City Council meeting. He has a serious credibility problem. If he does, will the City have a special election?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:38:00 PM  

  • And how about if Enochs' criminal case is tossed only because the investigation was tainted by biased political influence? In that case, Enochs keeps his freedom and his council position. Improbable? Maybe. Impossible? No.

    This bizarre possibility has been brought to you by the No on Recall Campaign of 2005.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:50:00 PM  

  • I feel like a real idiot saying "Murrieta T for council", but good god there has got to be something to it if the woman has Faunce, Jeff AND Roy backing her? What are the odds???? Along with a few more anons and gottorun. Next thing you know a council member or two will jump on the bandwagon. What the hell, I'll buy..."Murrieta T for council"

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:52:00 PM  

  • No Jeff I do not think he did anything wrong concerning the city's business. It is always sad to see someone self destruct. There is always alot of fallout and the family gets alot of it.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:09:00 PM  

  • If WE's multiple betrayals of the faith of those in his personal life is a crime, then how about the multiple betrayals of the faith of the people of murrieta by three of their councilmen? vanHaaster with his family perks, Seyarto with his constituent-screwing social engineering agenda, and McAllister with his in-your-face profiteering as a private development consultant. Enochs may be a villan to those in his personal life, but the three development stooges are villans to the people of Murrieta.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 7:44:00 AM  

  • 7:44 does your first name start with Bar or Deb? I know you cannot help yourself but now is not a good time to spew the hatred and stupidity that fills your heart. We don't need idiots like you tearing down our councilmen at a moment when we need to circle the wagons and do what is best for Murrieta. Take your line of bull elsewhere.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:02:00 AM  

  • Nicely said Rholmgren. And I second that motion.
    Anon Anon

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:17:00 AM  

  • Rholmgren, Of course you want to circle your wagons. You want to do and say anything possible to defend people who have done so much that deserves attack. You foolishly think that the crimes of one man's personal life will take attention away from the public villany of the three people who deserve intense public scrutiny. They all need to be exiled from public office in Murrieta. Enochs, Seyarto, vanHaaster and McAllister. They all need to be shown the underside of the voters boot as quickly as possible. And then maybe we can finally see a town being run by good and decent people who actually have the good of the constituents at heart. I know this very thought offends you, but the good of the voting constituents still comes first. This kind of "bull" you will have to live with. Sorry, my "bellicose" neighbor, as someone so eloquently described you.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:42:00 AM  

  • BRAVO BRAVO 8:42!!! Well said. There is a VERY BRIGHT LINING to this dark cloud for our town. It is called TWO DOWN AND JUST TWO TO GO! The public disgraces of ENOCHS AND VAN HASTER are basically history now. All that are left to show the door are SEYARTO AND MCALLISTER! This is a DIFFICULT PROCESS for Murrieta, but it is also Murrieta's BEST OPPORTUNITY to finish the dirty job of cleaning up city government. Yes, there is a bright side. Cheer up, everyone!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:06:00 AM  

  • With his impending arraignment, WE should step down until he's cleared of all charges. If he's so innocent, then he should have no problem regaining his seat once he's cleared of all charges.

    What's curious is that he has not come out since his arrest and screamed from the rooftop's his innocence. If I was in the public eye, and innocent (or thought myself to be innocent), I'd be turning what I can of the bad publicity in my favor by speaking to the base (that I would hope) had my support previously. His disappearance since his arrest, IMHO, speaks to his probable guilt.

    But up here, if your an RM supporter, you can't be guilty. Only DM, JvH, and KS can be crooked - even if they aren't the subjects of investigations. I think the RM crowd would be well served to tone down the accusations of criminal activity in wake of WE arrest.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:27:00 AM  

  • 9:27 I think some of you have it wrong here. What happened to Enochs is in his personal life, and in theory, it does make him to appear to be "unethical" as a man. He should step down, clean his slate, and then once completed come back and become a candidate again. As one of you said above, we cannot stop our questioning of the other Councilmen's motives, performances because another has commited felonies in his personal dealings. That's the focus that some will try to play here, for us to stop and quit. If we do the development community wins. We will be less vocal and their agenda will push forward. What happens now if it is two votes vs. two votes as in some cases it will be??? Who wins?

    Not us. 9:27, how do you know if any of the others are not under investigation? Did you know Enochs was? You don't do you?

    I am not a RM crowd member and have never met any of them in person.
    Like I said, I will not stop pushing for the replacement of Seyarto, because I feel he is not what we need in this city. What we do need are 5 members who are focussed at what is best for all of us, not just Corporate interests. Im for negotiation which favors Murrieta, not to save the developer money.

    I personally have no vested interest except being a homeowner where others on here have a vested interest as developers are forced to spend more money.

    Lets not circle the wagons because if we do, we will just be steam rolled by JVH, KS, DS and their band of wild developers (i mean indians).

    Does anyone think its funny that KS started posting days before Enochs was arrested. Remember his comment to me.....I told the authorities like you suggested?
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:02:00 AM  

  • 9:27 I am an RM supporter, and my personal opinion is that WE appears guilty as sin. It is good for Murrieta that JVH is gone for public/private transgressions, and it will be equally good that Enochs is gone. Assuming he is guilty as sin as I would guess, I just hope the politically prejudiced involvement by local authorities won't lead to a guilty man being set free on that prejudice technicality. As stated above, if Enochs is guilty of crimes in his personal life, two down/two to go sounds good to me, as it will to the great majority of RM'ers. We would feel the same whether the violations had been of either public trust or private. No matter who had committed those violations. Anyone who truly cares about this city will feel the same way. Anyone who feels otherwise would have an agenda that lies somewhere outside of wanting good people in office who are not pursuing agendas of their own personal benefit.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:12:00 AM  

  • One of the questions I have to ask our "new" Mayor and put this out for opinion now that we have many more posting on this string.

    Since Kelly is considered to be arrogant in his personality, not by just his detractors but by his supporters too, why is it the residents that think this? Shouldn't it be the Corporate community that thinks this. Shouldn't they be the ones complaining to the Council and the C of C that he is so hard to deal with and he negotiates so hard to get everything out of every project? Why would it be the residents complaining of this arrogance and not developers?

    In my business it is not my employees that would say Im arrogant but it is my suppliers as I fight with them to get the most out of them for the dollar I spend. Is this logic not reasonable? Is this not the way it should be in running our city?

    What we need are Councilmen who will work for us and not show arrogance. We should have a blog like this and yes, there would be complaining but there would also be answers that informed us of whats going on in the City and it's future and logical reasons as to why a Councilmen voted a certain way. We elected them and deserve to know why they do what they do, as they are suppose to be representing us when they vote. Not any other interests.
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:44:00 AM  

  • To Jeff, good point. Look at the difference Gibbs has made. He stood his ground opposing Alexander Communities proposed multi-family project saying it didn't fit the area. Now Alexander Communities, instead of filing another lawsuit, has come back to Council with changes in their proposed project.

    KS and DM would have taken the project as proposed, but Gibbs fought for us and the developer is ready to make changes. Of course, the question still remains, should the project be approved with the proposed changes?

    Edward Faunce

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:08:00 AM  

  • I am a Murrieta citizen who hopes Enochs will resign. I also hoped VanH would resign. I call for Enochs to resign, but as with VanH people who need to resign for the good of the area they represent rarely do. Resign, Warnie. And while we are at it, for the good of Murrieta, Doug and Kelly: Resign.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:18:00 AM  

  • Jeff: The way you approach problems with the city takes courage. Mr. Seyarto threatens you and then backs off, because he knows a lot of people in Murrieta have grown to respect what you have to say. I'm one of those people. Your last post raises an interesting point. It is the people, and not profit minded developers, who should be feeling affection for an elected official. In Murrieta, however, there are two elected officials who have love affairs going on with every big developer they meet. The public counter at City Hall may be where they have their initial encounters (I saw this once when I happened to be there) but then they go back all smiles into more private rooms of the building. That sounds kind of sleazy, but I think in a way its just as bad as it sounds. They may sometimes meet in private, but the law fortunately requires the payment to be in public. That payment in the form of campaign donations (donations made directly or, in the case of Mr. Seyarto, in a less straigtforward fashion through political groups which advertise on his behalf). Those big mass housing developers who make unimaginably huge profits are not the people whose interests should be protected by our elected officials. The voters, the home town constituents, are the only ones who need protection. But two of our existing councilmen treat those developers with loving affection. That kind of affair is an adulteration of the relationship a councilman is trusted to have with his constituents. It takes an awful lot of advertising dollars to cover up that fact, but those dollars are there.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 12:20:00 PM  

  • MT: Doug has learned fast. As a natural politician he leaves KS in the dust. From a motives point of view, the two of them are roughly equal. KS is educated and has fine communication skills, but education and speaking ability can be used for good or bad purposes. The man is four square in favor of his own social engineering agenda, which includes massively increasing the number of lower rung housing units in Murrieta. Personal skills and education become destructive tools in the hands of a person like that. He has bluntly made it clear that he prides himself on marching to the beat of his own drummer, but the drum beat going on in his head just happens to be the drummer of mass low rung housing developers. Admire him all you want. Get captivated by his personal charms. Be impressed by his education. And then think about the fact that these assets can become weapons if they are used against the best interests of his constituents who are the voters of Murrieta.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 1:02:00 PM  

  • Ohhhhhh Kelly. There you go again. Your goofy "grammar" comment. Just shows one of your repeated tactics. You (know and we all know) that your own grammar goof-up was only pointed out to put the spotlight on the fact that you yourself have been a grammar critic in the past. You can dish it out, but you can't take it. Vintage Kelly. Vintage backward spin. But you do it in every way, big and small, don't you? Sure we have to build housing for indigents, else they be homeless - out on the streets. And that's the same reason they build skid row flophouses, Kelly. And guess where all the drunks end up, Kelly? In the same place that provides low rung housing for them. That's not a remark against the homeless, Kelly. It's just a fact. And while we're at it, let's also become the center for halfway houses. Heck, I'm not against you Kelly. I'm all for your schemes. Bring on the low rung housing. Wreck our city. Not for the sake of social engineering. Just for the the sake of keeping people off the streets. Yeah. And what are we going to do if there's no city that wants to house the next state prison? Someone's got to do it. Please, Kelly, volunteer Murrieta for that one, too! Our mayor, Kelly Seyarto. Enjoy your trip to Sacramento. Is it at our expense? And are you going to talk to your really good housing authority friends who love you for providing all the bottom rung housing that is so cheap it helps to keep the state's welfare costs down? Be truthful, Kelly. Your slick defense of selling this town down the river deserves some kind of political showmanship award, but not everyone falls for it.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:30:00 PM  

  • Wow Kelly that wasn't even me!
    Jeff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:39:00 PM  

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